Slitherine

melm wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:04 pm It may make cavarly army difficult to break foot army then.

Possibly, but if so there should be a way for them to do so without using cheesy exploits to prevent their cavalry from breaking off. For example they could be made less likely to break off if there is another friendly unit capable of flank charging the enemy this turn.

Coordination between cavalry units ? Interesting.

SnuggleBunnies wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:20 am So far this seems like the simplest solution. 3 rounds of combat might be enough to rout the light troops. Even if it's not, it can give time to scramble other troops into position to save the situation. Still, both this solution and the idea of having non lights not turn to face lights wouldn't solve the problem, though it would make it somewhat less common - you could still pin a light unit in place with another light behind it, and, so long as you were already set up for a flank charge on the now pinned unit, you would be able to force an automatic cohesion drop where you normally wouldn't be able to. It would at least make it much more difficult/impossible to force the enemy unit to turn around and expose itself to a flank.

If there's already a non-light unit on the flank, wouldn't the typical sequence of attack be something like:
1)frontal charge to pin
2)flank charge by non-light unit to disrupt and hopefully fragment
3)throw in the light cavalry in last to insta-rout the fragmented unit

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:54 am Clearly the best solution would be to allow the blocking unit to be shunted out of the way - at least if it is a light unit. But that may be a nightmare to code, which is why I have avoided the issue for so long. I will take another look at the feasibility of that.

Bloodbowl push-back logic?

pompeytheflatulent wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2020 1:42 pm This just replaces a mildly annoying exploit with far worse exploits.

Screen_00000005.jpg

In the screenshot above, the infantry will be unable to make any forward progress at all since the lancers will fall back in place after every impact, restoring its ZOC. So you can have a 36 point unit of lancers neutralize three 72 point huscarls, force the huscarls to either stand there and do nothing, or charge and roll -50 POA impacts repeatedly until they destroy the lancers.

On way round this would be for units who have already fought a close combat this turn not to exert any ZOC for the rest of the turn, even if no longer in close combat.

But that might have other side effects.

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:39 pm

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:30 pm

melm wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:04 pm It may make cavarly army difficult to break foot army then.

Possibly, but if so there should be a way for them to do so without using cheesy exploits to prevent their cavalry from breaking off. For example they could be made less likely to break off if there is another friendly unit capable of flank charging the enemy this turn.

Coordination between cavalry units ? Interesting.

Yes, but would it be realistic? Would cavalry units really be capable of such coordination. I suspect not.

Another possibility for the 2 cavalry units vs 1 enemy unit issue, would be for a flank attack to count full effect if the enemy was in close combat earlier in the turn, even if it is no longer in close combat. This would represent the unit being even less ready than a completely unengaged unit to turn men to face.

So how about this package for a possible solution.

1) Troops can break off "on the spot" if the square behind them is blocked.
2) Troops who break off exert no ZOC for the remainder of the turn.
3) Flank/rear charges count full effect against enemy who were in close combat earlier in the turn, even if they aren't now. (Note that "earlier in the turn" normally includes combats resolved in the inter-turn phase - but that might need to be ignored for the purpose of this rule, so that it only applies to combats that have occurred during the current player's active turn).

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:43 pm Yes, but would it be realistic? Would cavalry units really be capable of such coordination. I suspect not.

I am certainly biased by my literature about... Rocroi (1643) and the French cavalry at the right wing attacking the Spanish one at the left wing : the squadron led by Enghien is said to have attacked head-on while the other led by Gassion was bypassing the woods by the right side — it took more time — and charged by the flank. That day, this tactic worked very well…

Are there examples during the Antiquity ? I don’t know.

But tactically speaking, in game, it would be fun... if it were hard to achieve.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:52 pm 1) Troops can break off "on the spot" if the square behind them is blocked.

would it be easy/interesting to add two possible other fallback roads to the current straight backward one, when they are not blocked and for a limited number of squares as they go diagonally, that is the road(s) they use when they break :

Athos1660 wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:48 pm

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:52 pm 1) Troops can break off "on the spot" if the square behind them is blocked.

would it be easy/interesting to add two possible other fallback roads to the current straight backward one, when they are not blocked and for a limited number of squares as they go diagonally :

Possible but not necessarily desirable.

Ok then it's all good.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:52 pm So how about this package for a possible solution.

1) Troops can break off "on the spot" if the square behind them is blocked.
2) Troops who break off exert no ZOC for the remainder of the turn.
3) Flank/rear charges count full effect against enemy who were in close combat earlier in the turn, even if they aren't now. (Note that "earlier in the turn" normally includes combats resolved in the inter-turn phase - but that might need to be ignored for the purpose of this rule, so that it only applies to combats that have occurred during the current player's active turn).

I like the sound of this, except wouldn't it swap the roles of heavy cavalry and light cavalry? First frontal charge with light cavalry, bounce off (or do not bounce off, as it effectively would make no difference), then the heavy cavalry charges the flank of the target.

Swuul wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:20 pm

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:52 pm So how about this package for a possible solution.

1) Troops can break off "on the spot" if the square behind them is blocked.
2) Troops who break off exert no ZOC for the remainder of the turn.
3) Flank/rear charges count full effect against enemy who were in close combat earlier in the turn, even if they aren't now. (Note that "earlier in the turn" normally includes combats resolved in the inter-turn phase - but that might need to be ignored for the purpose of this rule, so that it only applies to combats that have occurred during the current player's active turn).

I like the sound of this, except wouldn't it swap the roles of heavy cavalry and light cavalry? First frontal charge with light cavalry, bounce off (or do not bounce off, as it effectively would make no difference), then the heavy cavalry charges the flank of the target.

Good point. It would need to exclude previous (but now ceased) close combat with light troops, which makes it start to look rather clunky.

Seems like it would make junky armies more effective. It removes the question of if your, say, light spear infantry can get stuck in against against impact foot or pikes and open a flank opportunity, or if they will recoil badly and you wasted significant effort. Now there will always be a gain to sending in the chaff.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:52 pm So how about this package for a possible solution.

1) Troops can break off "on the spot" if the square behind them is blocked.
2) Troops who break off exert no ZOC for the remainder of the turn.
3) Flank/rear charges count full effect against enemy who were in close combat earlier in the turn, even if they aren't now. (Note that "earlier in the turn" normally includes combats resolved in the inter-turn phase - but that might need to be ignored for the purpose of this rule, so that it only applies to combats that have occurred during the current player's active turn).

I like point 1 but am not sure why point 2 is necessary. Point 3 sounds complicated. I liked your earlier point when you suggested that if a non-light unit is contacted in the rear or flank by a LH it does not turn to face.

What if you gave light troops only the ability to Fall Back in place? That could make them too wiggly, I suppose. Would it be possible to code it so that light troops only could Fall Back in place, but only after Impact? Though that is many things for players to remember.

Personally I still feel it would be worthwhile to do a more complex system, if it's at all viable, where light units blocking break-offs evade before the breaking unit moves back as usual. Here's an image from older thread of various unit interactions that I think would make the system very natural and intuitive for the player.

https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewto ... 27#p810427

edit. This suggestions ignored the light cavalry not being able to pass through units but if light cavalry is blocked by friendly light, the blocking unit should evade as if evading non-light unit. If the light cavalry is blocked from breaking-off by friendly non-light then maybe it should break-off in place or just stay in combat but the enemy would not turn to expose its flank.

In case something like that isn't at all possible: The current suggestions for in-place break-offs seem to require a lot of special rules and exceptions to not open new issues and with no movement it sounds pretty hard to follow for the player. Preventing non-light units from exposing their flank when attacked by light unit sounds good and fixes the main issue most of the time, other than that I think it could be better to leave things as they are.

One thing I haven't seen mentioned (forgive me if it has), is the facing of the blocking troops. If the blocking troops have a ZOC (the front edge anyway, if light troops vs non-light) over the unit being blocked, then I think that is legitimate regardless of their weight. I don't believe that would, in most cases, be any kind of cheese move, but more likely lining up a rear charge, or friends getting too close to the action.
Also there's a difference if the blocking troops arrived there via a pursuit or a deliberate move, can the game tell the difference, I don't know the game well enough yet to tell. I think that a non-facing unit behind, should take a cohesion test if they stop a fall back if they are pursuers (if it's possible to tell), but if simply moved there should drop a level without a test, whether they are friends or enemy.

Cunningcairn wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:38 am

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:52 pm So how about this package for a possible solution.

1) Troops can break off "on the spot" if the square behind them is blocked.
2) Troops who break off exert no ZOC for the remainder of the turn.
3) Flank/rear charges count full effect against enemy who were in close combat earlier in the turn, even if they aren't now. (Note that "earlier in the turn" normally includes combats resolved in the inter-turn phase - but that might need to be ignored for the purpose of this rule, so that it only applies to combats that have occurred during the current player's active turn).

I am not sure why point 2 is necessary.

See pompeytheflatulent's first post on page 1 of the thread.