Slitherine

I went ahead and made the motion that was first suggested by Mike_c that the save game feature be disabled in league and tournament play due to the "save-scrumming" cheat. This appears to be widespread, seems to be occurring in league play, and is extremely frustrating to players on the receiving end of the cheat.

bbogensc wrote:I went ahead and made the motion that was first suggested by Mike_c that the save game feature be disabled in league and tournament play due to the "save-scrumming" cheat. This appears to be widespread, seems to be occurring in league play, and is extremely frustrating to players on the receiving end of the cheat.

Please see my reply here:

viewtopic.php?f=501&t=80756&p=725756#p725756

If this really wants to be permanently fixed then the game design needs to change so that each result is uploaded as they happen rather than loading the set of results at the end of the turn or on save. This would remove the need to save if the user needs to break an play later.

Richard, maybe what is happening would be better implied by having the subsequent "Hold Firms" on the same modifiers reworded to "Remains Firm" or the like unless there is a fresh test which would use "Holds Firm" again.

SirGarnet wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:32 am Richard, maybe what is happening would be better implied by having the subsequent "Hold Firms" on the same modifiers reworded to "Remains Firm" or the like unless there is a fresh test which would use "Holds Firm" again.

Yes, that is a good idea, although technically it means the same thing. I will think about it further.

Without a technical difference yes, adding the sense that the holding firm is continuing and may indeed continue to continue in the face of reverses.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Sun May 27, 2018 1:16 pm [Please see my reply here:

viewtopic.php?f=501&t=80756&p=725756#p725756

I can't open your reply for some reason--could you please repost?

76mm wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:08 pm

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Sun May 27, 2018 1:16 pm [Please see my reply here:

viewtopic.php?f=501&t=80756&p=725756#p725756

I can't open your reply for some reason--could you please repost?

viewtopic.php?f=501&t=80756&p=725756#p725756

SirGarnet wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:32 am Richard, maybe what is happening would be better implied by having the subsequent "Hold Firms" on the same modifiers reworded to "Remains Firm" or the like unless there is a fresh test which would use "Holds Firm" again.

SirGarnet, while this is an interesting idea, it does not solve the issue of (IMO)excessive held firms especially of already fragmented units that in a normal universe should break and scatter to the winds. To me these particular held firms that pertain to already fragmented units, well, its like the Spartan 300 at Thermopylae. Ask yourself how frequent would Thermopylae type stands occur? Once, maybe twice in a war. In every battle that I have played in this game there have been a half dozen or more, in each battle! You expect me to believe that this system is representative of Ancient/Medieval warfare with 'Epic' last stands on the scale of the 300 Spartans many times in each battle? As per my original post(and I do like the overall game itself) I will revisit this product when there are Medieval DLC's and hopefully this particular issue is fixed.
Cheers
Alex

AlexDetrojan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:59 pm

SirGarnet wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:32 am Richard, maybe what is happening would be better implied by having the subsequent "Hold Firms" on the same modifiers reworded to "Remains Firm" or the like unless there is a fresh test which would use "Holds Firm" again.

SirGarnet, while this is an interesting idea, it does not solve the issue of (IMO)excessive held firms especially of already fragmented units that in a normal universe should break and scatter to the winds. To me these particular held firms that pertain to already fragmented units, well, its like the Spartan 300 at Thermopylae. Ask yourself how frequent would Thermopylae type stands occur? Once, maybe twice in a war. In every battle that I have played in this game there have been a half dozen or more, in each battle! You expect me to believe that this system is representative of Ancient/Medieval warfare with 'Epic' last stands on the scale of the 300 Spartans many times in each battle? As per my original post(and I do like the overall game itself) I will revisit this product when there are Medieval DLC's and hopefully this particular issue is fixed.
Cheers
Alex

Except that there is no issue to fix. (Apart, perhaps, from my lack of ability to explain how the system works).

Units are not passing multiple independent cohesion tests against all odds, the game is simulating all of the close combats in a turn being adjudicated simultaneously, and then the losing unit taking one cohesion test taking into account all of its close combat results and the worst set of modifiers applying.

AlexDetrojan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:59 pm

SirGarnet wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:32 am Richard, maybe what is happening would be better implied by having the subsequent "Hold Firms" on the same modifiers reworded to "Remains Firm" or the like unless there is a fresh test which would use "Holds Firm" again.

SirGarnet, while this is an interesting idea, it does not solve the issue of (IMO)excessive held firms especially of already fragmented units that in a normal universe should break and scatter to the winds. To me these particular held firms that pertain to already fragmented units, well, its like the Spartan 300 at Thermopylae. Ask yourself how frequent would Thermopylae type stands occur? Once, maybe twice in a war. In every battle that I have played in this game there have been a half dozen or more, in each battle! You expect me to believe that this system is representative of Ancient/Medieval warfare with 'Epic' last stands on the scale of the 300 Spartans many times in each battle? As per my original post(and I do like the overall game itself) I will revisit this product when there are Medieval DLC's and hopefully this particular issue is fixed.
Cheers
Alex

Except there's really no last stands per se as all units auto break eventually when the threshold of causalties is reached, even if they pass cohesion tests. A fragged unit isnt one that necesarily "panicking" they might very well just be penny pack of men fight with increased vigour as quarter was pretty rare in those cirumstances.

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 4:16 pm

AlexDetrojan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:59 pm

SirGarnet wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:32 am Richard, maybe what is happening would be better implied by having the subsequent "Hold Firms" on the same modifiers reworded to "Remains Firm" or the like unless there is a fresh test which would use "Holds Firm" again.

SirGarnet, while this is an interesting idea, it does not solve the issue of (IMO)excessive held firms especially of already fragmented units that in a normal universe should break and scatter to the winds. To me these particular held firms that pertain to already fragmented units, well, its like the Spartan 300 at Thermopylae. Ask yourself how frequent would Thermopylae type stands occur? Once, maybe twice in a war. In every battle that I have played in this game there have been a half dozen or more, in each battle! You expect me to believe that this system is representative of Ancient/Medieval warfare with 'Epic' last stands on the scale of the 300 Spartans many times in each battle? As per my original post(and I do like the overall game itself) I will revisit this product when there are Medieval DLC's and hopefully this particular issue is fixed.
Cheers
Alex

Except that there is no issue to fix. (Apart, perhaps, from my lack of ability to explain how the system works).

Units are not passing multiple independent cohesion tests against all odds, the game is simulating all of the close combats in a turn being adjudicated simultaneously, and then the losing unit taking one cohesion test taking into account all of its close combat results and the worst set of modifiers applying.

No Richard, you have explained very well, I just disagree. I don't have the years of experience you have under your belt...I'm just a wargame player since the '70's. What I was hoping you would revisit is the SINGLE cohesion test taken by this fragmented unit, even if there are multiple (or should I say especially if there are multiple attackers). This seems holistically wrong to me...
Cheers
Alex
P.S. I've been playing P&S a lot lately, and have not encountered this issue(held firm heroics ad infinitum) in that games mechanics...and hence is a much more enjoyable experience.

TheGrayMouser wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:02 pm

AlexDetrojan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:59 pm

SirGarnet wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:32 am Richard, maybe what is happening would be better implied by having the subsequent "Hold Firms" on the same modifiers reworded to "Remains Firm" or the like unless there is a fresh test which would use "Holds Firm" again.

SirGarnet, while this is an interesting idea, it does not solve the issue of (IMO)excessive held firms especially of already fragmented units that in a normal universe should break and scatter to the winds. To me these particular held firms that pertain to already fragmented units, well, its like the Spartan 300 at Thermopylae. Ask yourself how frequent would Thermopylae type stands occur? Once, maybe twice in a war. In every battle that I have played in this game there have been a half dozen or more, in each battle! You expect me to believe that this system is representative of Ancient/Medieval warfare with 'Epic' last stands on the scale of the 300 Spartans many times in each battle? As per my original post(and I do like the overall game itself) I will revisit this product when there are Medieval DLC's and hopefully this particular issue is fixed.
Cheers
Alex

Except there's really no last stands per se as all units auto break eventually when the threshold of causalties is reached, even if they pass cohesion tests. A fragged unit isnt one that necesarily "panicking" they might very well just be penny pack of men fight with increased vigour as quarter was pretty rare in those cirumstances.

And I agree with this assessment TheGreyMouser, it's just the absolute frequency of this result that stretches my credulity...
Cheers
Alex

AlexDetrojan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:14 pmWhat I was hoping you would revisit is the SINGLE cohesion test taken by this fragmented unit, even if there are multiple (or should I say especially if there are multiple attackers). This seems holistically wrong to me...

An Average quality unit with -4 modifier (-2 for being already fragmented, -1 for losing close combat, plus either -1 for losing close combat badly or -1 for having already lost 25% losses) has an 83.3% chance of failing, and a Superior quality unit has a 77.3% chance of failing.

(Heavy foot would have a somewhat higher chance of passing, unless they had all 5 negative modifiers.)

If you don't think that is sufficient then we will have to agree to disagree.

Note that the only difference in Pike and Shot is that only Early Tercios and Keils get the built in +1 modifier that all non-Warband Heavy Foot do in FOG2.

[Note that the only difference in Pike and Shot is that only Early Tercios and Keils get the built in +1 modifier that all non-Warband Heavy Foot do in FOG2.' -Was not aware of this, thanks.
Richard to maybe further this discussion(if you wish) it might be helpful(probably more for me) to clarify what the different cohesion levels actually mean, to the efficiency of the units and their moral. I'm not meaning so much +1 or -2 modifiers and such, but just exactly what is happening with these units. As an example Fragmented to me means that the disciple and military formation itself is askew, hardly recognizable as a military unit. The moral(which I feel is just as if not more important than the combat effectiveness) is more on the line that individual soldiers are glancing over their backs looking for the nearest piece of cover to duck into as opposed to them thinking, well I think it's 'bout time I head home for a sandwich...

Let's not apply without scrutiny 20th and 21st century combat psychology to the combatants and massed formations of the previous few thousand years of human warfare.

That a unit that weathers a major moral shock will weather a steady flow of further losses until tested by another major moral shock seems fairly represented in the FOG cohesion test mechanics. (A purist might critique the percentage autobreak on historical grounds, but it has proven necessary for the flow of gameplay.)

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:31 pm Note that the only difference in Pike and Shot is that only Early Tercios and Keils get the built in +1 modifier that all non-Warband Heavy Foot do in FOG2.

The P&S manual says that "heavy, mixed or determined foot" receive the +1 cohesion modifier. Was this changed?

Frustration is what I hear, those are the moments we say things without a filter. If the prediction would show the probabilities for failing the morale checks accepting the results would be easier, as those are not 100% most of the time. Seeing a 100% win fail feels like you are robbed. Hope your next game gives more joy.

w_michael wrote: ↑Wed Aug 22, 2018 8:08 pm

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 5:31 pm Note that the only difference in Pike and Shot is that only Early Tercios and Keils get the built in +1 modifier that all non-Warband Heavy Foot do in FOG2.

The P&S manual says that "heavy, mixed or determined foot" receive the +1 cohesion modifier. Was this changed?

It was changed for Warbands - see the Patch notes file. Mixed and Determined foot do not yet exist in the game.

AlexDetrojan wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:31 pm

Note that the only difference in Pike and Shot is that only Early Tercios and Keils get the built in +1 modifier that all non-Warband Heavy Foot do in FOG2.

Was not aware of this, thanks.

Richard to maybe further this discussion(if you wish) it might be helpful(probably more for me) to clarify what the different cohesion levels actually mean, to the efficiency of the units and their moral. I'm not meaning so much +1 or -2 modifiers and such, but just exactly what is happening with these units. As an example Fragmented to me means that the disciple and military formation itself is askew, hardly recognizable as a military unit. The moral(which I feel is just as if not more important than the combat effectiveness) is more on the line that individual soldiers are glancing over their backs looking for the nearest piece of cover to duck into as opposed to them thinking, well I think it's 'bout time I head home for a sandwich...

Sorry, I missed this post, hence the delay in replying.

Yes, that is what Fragmented represents.

However, the point is that the game is trying to treat various events as simultaneous despite the fact that they are dealt with sequentially in the game. So if a unit drops to Fragmented, that represents its drop for all close combat in the turn, even though some of the combats are not adjudicated till later in the sequence. So the only way it should drop further is if additional modifiers convert the original drop from Disrupted to Fragmented into a double drop.

Next turn, or if it is charged this turn, it is treated as a new (set of) events, allowing a further drop.

Mike has hit the nail on the head:

SirGarnet wrote: ↑Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:47 pmThat a unit that weathers a major moral shock will weather a steady flow of further losses until tested by another major moral shock seems fairly represented in the FOG cohesion test mechanics.