Slitherine

Hey Tarrak,

There is a confusion about how the average unit value for the softcap is exactly calculated. It's either PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits / NumberOfDEPLOYABLEUnits or PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits / NumberOfDEPLOYEDUnits.

Yes, I checked on this and am sure that it is PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits / NumberOfDEPLOYABLEUnits

So, deploying fewer units helps toward the soft cap. I considered this, but chose rather to deploy some cheap units, e.g. StugIIIB or the SdKfZ 7/1. Both with a high RoF, the Stug with HA of 8 can be of great help even late on; I converted a Range hero Arty into a Stug which I kept until the very end in Berlin. Unfortunately, that one was my only Range hero arty, otherwise I would have repeated this move.

And the SdKfZ 7/1, while one point down in AA has that high RoF compared to the 7/2, and is 50% cheaper than the late SPADs. This one too I used all the way down to Berlin 45.

I yust finished France in the Wehrmacht campaign and my average unit cost is 403 including all units. Without SE Units it is 418 and even with all units deployed and no losses I got the full 50 prestige for the first victory hex. No change if I field only expensive units.

Now I am a little bit puzzled, because the game is completely vanilla and I even checked a late mission from a previous campaign. The soft cap is very active there.

My conclusion is that it definitely is PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits / NumberOfDEPLOYABLEUnits and maybe even the SE-Unit slots count with SE-Units not adding to the PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits. That would bring my average prestige below 400. On the other hand maybe I just got the calculation wrong...

All this observations are more and more confusing. I think we really need Rudankort to have a look at the code to clarify this mystery.

What is the advantage of having a high rate og fire?

TigerIII wrote:What is the advantage of having a high rate og fire?

Rate of Fire multiplied with the strength of the unit means how much dice it rolls per combat aka how many chances it get to score a hit. Default RoF is 10, which the majority of the units have, but some differ. A unit with RoF of 10 and 10 strength points rolls 10 dices, if it gets reduced to 5 strength points it only rolls 5. If the unit got a RoF of 14 for example it would roll 14 dices at 10 strength and 7 dices at 5 strength. A unit having a RoF of 7 would only roll 7 dices at 10 strength and 3 or 4 dices at 5 strength (not sure if it gets rounded up or down).

RoF and ammunition matter a lot for artillery. Heavier artillery generally hits harder, has lower RoF and less ammo.

For most soft targets, the 10.5cm gun's higher rate of fire is better because you suppress a lot. Maybe the chance of suppression is higher with the 15cm or 17cm, but you fire fewer shots, so overall there is a net reduction. Add in the lower ammo supplies and you have less capacity to provide defensive fire and even without defensive fire, you fire less often because you are missing a hot to reload (maybe every fourth or fifth turn instead of every seventh or eighth). After 1943 you might want a few heavier guns as it gets harder to suppress heavily armoured tanks with a 10.5cm. The 17cm is probably the best compromise.

The other thing to consider is that rocket launchers have 100% RoF, combined with very high soft attack. If you over strength them they can almost completely suppress most infantry units, allowing your pioneers or flame tanks to beat them up without return casualties (Flame tanks have RoF 140% and so are lethal against suppressed soft targets because they fire so many shots, each with a high chance of suppression). You do lose out from the low ammo, but then you should be using them for special attacks as far as possible.

The effect of RoF is less clear for AA - my best estimates are that the quad 20mms (120% RoF) are slightly better for defensive fire than the 37mm single guns (because on defensive fire, aircraft defence is lower so the weaker attack is less of an issue), but the 37 is better for attack. However, this is a very hard to calculate reliably and it really comes down to personal choice. Ammo supplies have little influence for lighter AA since it is so high.

I have had some thoughts about putting the RoF up for very autocannons (20 and 25mm AT guns) but haven't got round to it yet.

mulleto22 wrote:Hey Tarrak,

There is a confusion about how the average unit value for the softcap is exactly calculated. It's either PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits / NumberOfDEPLOYABLEUnits or PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits / NumberOfDEPLOYEDUnits.

Yes, I checked on this and am sure that it is PrestigeOfDeployedCoreUnits / NumberOfDEPLOYABLEUnits

So, deploying fewer units helps toward the soft cap. I considered this, but chose rather to deploy some cheap units, e.g. StugIIIB or the SdKfZ 7/1. Both with a high RoF, the Stug with HA of 8 can be of great help even late on; I converted a Range hero Arty into a Stug which I kept until the very end in Berlin. Unfortunately, that one was my only Range hero arty, otherwise I would have repeated this move.

So you get a -400 counted towards the soft cap per unit you do not deploy?

This soft cap thing is really confusing me a bit
So it takes into account the total prestige cost of you units so overstrength units will reach the cap sooner
If your units are damaged and most have like 5 strength you would be getting more prestige then at the start of the scenario right?

best75 wrote:This soft cap thing is really confusing me a bit
So it takes into account the total prestige cost of you units so overstrength units will reach the cap sooner
If your units are damaged and most have like 5 strength you would be getting more prestige then at the start of the scenario right?

Soft cap is very confusing.
Personally i would like a bar that tells me during deployment what my average cap is at any given time. And the number should go red as soon as i pass 400.
And newer players should be allowed to turn it off without having to edit the game files...
But i shouldnt get my hopes up, seems like this game is abandonware now as the team has moved on to other games.

TigerIII wrote:

best75 wrote:This soft cap thing is really confusing me a bit
So it takes into account the total prestige cost of you units so overstrength units will reach the cap sooner
If your units are damaged and most have like 5 strength you would be getting more prestige then at the start of the scenario right?

Soft cap is very confusing.
Personally i would like a bar that tells me during deployment what my average cap is at any given time. And the number should go red as soon as i pass 400.
And newer players should be allowed to turn it off without having to edit the game files...
But i shouldnt get my hopes up, seems like this game is abandonware now as the team has moved on to other games.

I hate the soft cap but don't mind most of the other changes so I have my own work around. I give myself 1000 extra prestige for an MV and 3000 for a DV using the cheat codes. It works out ok for me and give me a reason to try for a DV over an MV.

TigerIII wrote:Personally i would like a bar that tells me during deployment what my average cap is at any given time. And the number should go red as soon as i pass 400.
And newer players should be allowed to turn it off without having to edit the game files.

I agree with this, it would be good to have an indicator or visual reference instead of having to diddle around with the game files. Seriously, new players will just patch their games to the latest version and wouldn't know anything about the soft cap or what it means until its too late.

TigerIII wrote:

best75 wrote:This soft cap thing is really confusing me a bit
So it takes into account the total prestige cost of you units so overstrength units will reach the cap sooner
If your units are damaged and most have like 5 strength you would be getting more prestige then at the start of the scenario right?

Soft cap is very confusing.
Personally i would like a bar that tells me during deployment what my average cap is at any given time. And the number should go red as soon as i pass 400.
And newer players should be allowed to turn it off without having to edit the game files...
But i shouldnt get my hopes up, seems like this game is abandonware now as the team has moved on to other games.

Yes a bar or something that tells the average prestige of core would be useful

best75 wrote: If your units are damaged and most have like 5 strength you would be getting more prestige then at the start of the scenario right?

Yes this is correct. I did some testing and it works like you said. You can deploy a force over the cap and you will be penalized when capturing objectives, but when due to causalities your force goes below the cap you will get full prestige.

So if there will be a patch that shows f.e. a bar informing the player if he is over the cap or not it would need to be shown not only in deployment but also in scenario.

If the prestige cap was based on total prestige fielded rather than average for each unit it would meet the objectives better and allow improved user control. This has the added benefit that the prestige limit can be adjusted for each scenario (like the number of units that can be deployed), and the limit can be automatically modified to accommodate difficulty level.

eg. during deployment the display reads: For this scenario your prestige limit is 5,000: your prestige rate is 100%
When deploying units, the display also shows your running total deployed and any effect of the cap. eg Your deployed force costs 6,000 prestige. Your prestige rate is 45%.

You could still have a maximum unit limit while still allowing the choice of a larger force of weaker units (10 Panzer IVJ at 10 strength) or a smaller more powerful force, (four Tiger 2 at 13 strength) or you could choose strength and numbers for a lower return.

This way the prestige cap impact becomes visible at the time of deployment and allows player control over what is going on, and can accommodate difficulty level and scenario needs, all of which are problems with the current system. It would work better if there was an option to disband overstrength points, so that you could choose to deploy a unit currently at 13 strength at 11 strength to keep within the prestige limit or simply because you would prefer fielding it at a different strength, but otherwise should mainly require few difficult changes, and may even be within the capabilities of some of our modders (though it's beyond my limited skills).