Slitherine

iversonjm wrote: Nik appears to have seen the issue with this langauge and is running the issue by Richard.

Richard's answer to me is nice and short: "A kinked column is a legal formation, so cannot reform."

Given Matt's point on the wording between 4-2 and 10-1 I will raise the possibility of a FAQ/Clarification for the avoidance of doubt.

I'm struggling to understand why this seems to be a big issue?

Perhaps someone could be good enough to PM me and explain how one is wringing some kind of advantage from kinked columns?

Thanks v much.

nikgaukroger wrote:

iversonjm wrote: Nik appears to have seen the issue with this langauge and is running the issue by Richard.

Richard's answer to me is nice and short: "A kinked column is a legal formation, so cannot reform."

Given Matt's point on the wording between 4-2 and 10-1 I will raise the possibility of a FAQ/Clarification for the avoidance of doubt.

Well, that is clear, but now leaves the question of whether and how a kinked column can turn or expand entirely up in the air. If the FAC/clarification is to be helpful, it has to go a bit further than that.

As I see it, there are three basic positions:

1. A kinked column can neither turn nor expand nor do anything until it has marched forward past the turn point and unkinked itself. If this is impossible (say because there is an enemy skirmish stand in the way), tough nuggies. The unit must stand there and do nothing until the obstruction wanders away.

This position appears to be advocated primarily by people whose opponent's units are in kinked columns.

2. A kinked column can turn and expand as normal, regardless of kinking.

This position appears to be advocated primarily by people whose own units are in kinked columns.

3. A kinked column can make some turns and expands, but not others. Which ones are allowed vary between commentators.

This position appears to be advocated by people who are not currently playing a game.

As far as I can tell, there is no textual support in the rules for any of these positions. I think that gives an advantage to position 2, as in the absence of a specific exception, normal rules would presumably apply.

Do I have this right? If so, we need FAC/clarification as to which of these positions is correct. Otherwise we have to leave the issue to be decided by the whim of the particular umpire at a tournament, or, if there is no umpire, by fisticuffs.

I like the expression "tough nuggies" - if only that phrase were in the rules and glossary

I imagine the issue with allowing them to turn 90 degrees is a kinked line isn't a normal formation?

Regardless of what the RAW say, when throughly decoded...which is quite an enteratining discussion

What do we want to/think should happen?

It seems reasonable to place restrictions on kinked columns, especially if caught too near to the enemy in a formation that is not well suited to imminent combat...but it shouldn't be taken too far. Would they really freeze in place because the enemy are nearby, showring them with missiles?

So I wonder if you should be allowed to do certain things (charge, perhaps turn 90, perhaps turn 180, perhaps expand), subject to passing a CMT, and with the penalty that if you do that thing you automatically drop a level of cohesion as a counterbalance to having been able to remove the inconvenient kink

petedalby wrote:Perhaps someone could be good enough to PM me and explain how one is wringing some kind of advantage from kinked columns?

Pete did you resign from the evil academy? Since it is harder to move and turn onto someone's flank, the new preferred move is to whip in with a 1 element wide column.

Consider the Cavalry 2x2. It passes its CMT to contract and then still gets its full 5 MU. Much better for threatening flanks than the advance 3 MU and turn 90.

Same is true for everyone the contract into a column and wheel the head to get into optimum position is the critical part.

hazelbark wrote:

petedalby wrote:Perhaps someone could be good enough to PM me and explain how one is wringing some kind of advantage from kinked columns?

Pete did you resign from the evil academy? Since it is harder to move and turn onto someone's flank, the new preferred move is to whip in with a 1 element wide column.

Consider the Cavalry 2x2. It passes its CMT to contract and then still gets its full 5 MU. Much better for threatening flanks than the advance 3 MU and turn 90.

Same is true for everyone the contract into a column and wheel the head to get into optimum position is the critical part.

I am afraid that this discussion is beginning to sound like a "jump the shark" moment for FoGAM

At the risk of appearing ignorant (not hard I know!):

Jump the shark?

hazelbark wrote:

petedalby wrote:Perhaps someone could be good enough to PM me and explain how one is wringing some kind of advantage from kinked columns?

Pete did you resign from the evil academy? Since it is harder to move and turn onto someone's flank, the new preferred move is to whip in with a 1 element wide column.

Consider the Cavalry 2x2. It passes its CMT to contract and then still gets its full 5 MU. Much better for threatening flanks than the advance 3 MU and turn 90.

Same is true for everyone the contract into a column and wheel the head to get into optimum position is the critical part.

Surely it's a little hard to threaten the flank with a kinked column given that they cannot charge?

My answer

Dont let them do anything until past the kink.

If they can move past the kink they must

If they cannot make a move past they don't unless they pass a CMT and may then only reform into column on their front base. Any enemy being moved out of the way like they are for turns. However if friends are in the way they are not moved out and the kinky bugger is stuck

It's rather a pity this wasn't thought about prior to the release of v2

grahambriggs wrote:

hazelbark wrote:

petedalby wrote:Perhaps someone could be good enough to PM me and explain how one is wringing some kind of advantage from kinked columns?

Pete did you resign from the evil academy? Since it is harder to move and turn onto someone's flank, the new preferred move is to whip in with a 1 element wide column.

Consider the Cavalry 2x2. It passes its CMT to contract and then still gets its full 5 MU. Much better for threatening flanks than the advance 3 MU and turn 90.

Same is true for everyone the contract into a column and wheel the head to get into optimum position is the critical part.

Surely it's a little hard to threaten the flank with a kinked column given that they cannot charge?

Its actually not really a flank threatening issue for the reasons that you state. The issue arises more in the context of trying to reposition units for whatever reason, because most foots units in battle formation that turn 90' end up in a column. When there are lots of moving pieces nearby, some pushed by your opponent, one can easily find oneself in a position where the kinked column can never move forward enough to unkink. If the rule ends up being as Phil wants it, that unit is effectively out of the game, as it can no longer charge or move. There is also the separate but related issue how a kinked column turns. This issue has always been around, but has recently gained more attention because now kinked columns are special.

ShrubMiK wrote:At the risk of appearing ignorant (not hard I know!):

Jump the shark?

Fonzie jumping the shark:



From Wikipedia (probably a little bit harsh for this situation, but):

"The usage of "jump the shark" has subsequently broadened beyond television, indicating the moment when a brand, design, or creative effort's evolution loses the essential qualities that initially defined its success and declines, ultimately, into irrelevance."

The comment refers to the rule being talked about, not to the whole body of v2.

No offense intended

HAL

dave_r wrote:It's rather a pity this wasn't thought about prior to the release of v2

This was. By me. I raised this exact issue because the kinked column trapping situation happened in beta testing. There was at least some discussion about it on the forum. When I saw the revised reform rules, I thought: "Great! Someone finally listened to me and fixed the problem!"

Turns out I was wrong, and no one listened to me. Instead there was only additional language that appeared as if someone had listened to me, but actually wasn't intended to mean what it said.

It is all very frustrating.

Pete did you resign from the evil academy?

Hopefully I was never a member Dan.

But thanks to those who have taken the time and trouble to enlighten me.

Looks like much to do about nothing though. Fortunately we don't get this kind of behaviour in FoGR.

petedalby wrote: Looks like much to do about nothing though. Fortunately we don't get this kind of behaviour in FoGR.

Exactly...because Ruddock does not play FOGR.

ShrubMiK wrote:What do we want to/think should happen?

I've been following this discussion loosely, and have an opinion - whether it is 'rules bound' or not, I'm not sure because I don't have V2 yet, so keep that in mind.

My opinion is twofold:

Firstly, this ISN'T a wheel. I've made this point many many times before. What we call wheeling isn't wheeling. On the battlefield it is called a "form", and it is a LOT more difficult to do than a wheel. A "wheel" is 'follow the man in front of you, and only really able to be done up to about 5 or 6 files. Any more than that and the physics of having 6 or 7 guys at the hub of the wheel means that they have to be in the same place at the same time (impossible). So, they developed the form, which is a TURN at a specific angle and then march a specific number of paces and stop. You then wait for the rest of the formation to catch up. This is why it is easier to do a 90degree of 45degree form. A 17.3 degree or 113.4 degree form is extremely complex and wouldn't be made. How do you give that command? "Regiment, at the halt, 113.4 degree left form"? What does the marker say then? "What did he say? 113.4 degree? Hang on, I didn't bring my protractor!" Keeping that in mind, leads me to my second point;

Secondly, a unit that has done a form is (for the time they are IN the form) are effectively severely disordered. No commander in their right mind would consider a formation change like that within proximity of the enemy. You would want to be 'out of the form' by the time enemy were going to be threatening you.

Considering the above two points of mine, we cannot go changing the rules, but I would say that if you can't complete the 'wheel' and get out of the 'kinked column' that you yourself put yourself in then 'tough nuggies'. You SHOULD have to continue straight ahead until such time as the tail is past the point of the kink at which time you could do whatever you want. Now, if the rules allow you to expand OUT of a kinked column then so be it, but if you can't expand because of proximity to enemy (or friends) then perhaps you should have thought of that in the previous turn when you got all kinky.

hazelbark wrote:

petedalby wrote: Looks like much to do about nothing though. Fortunately we don't get this kind of behaviour in FoGR.

Exactly...because Ruddock does not play FOGR.

It actually is any issue of army type. Kinked columns are rare in FOGR because the geometry of the formations (they tend to be deeper than a base width) and movement rules (which prevent non-skirmish foot from turning and moving) make columns unusual. Kinked columns are also rare in cavalry armies, because when 2x2 cav units turn and move they are still 2x2 formations. Kinked columns are common, however, in non-pike drilled foot armies, because the standard fighting formations in these armies are 1 based width deep or less. That means whenever one of these formations executes a turn, it forms a column, and whenever that column wheels, it has to kink. Given that these columns can be about six inches long for an 8 base unit, it can take several moves before the column can unkink. If that column can't do anything in the interim except march straight forward, it makes it very hard to maneuver foot.

This is great for players like Dan, Phil, and Chris who like to victimize poor helpless foot armies with swarms of cavalry, but not so great for players like Dave and I that occasionally like to field an army with foot for variety's sake. (Not that this has any bearing on all of our respective positions on this issue. I'm sure that's purely a coincidence.)

ravenflight wrote:

ShrubMiK wrote:What do we want to/think should happen?

I've been following this discussion loosely, and have an opinion - whether it is 'rules bound' or not, I'm not sure because I don't have V2 yet, so keep that in mind.

My opinion is twofold:

Firstly, this ISN'T a wheel. I've made this point many many times before. What we call wheeling isn't wheeling. On the battlefield it is called a "form", and it is a LOT more difficult to do than a wheel. A "wheel" is 'follow the man in front of you, and only really able to be done up to about 5 or 6 files. Any more than that and the physics of having 6 or 7 guys at the hub of the wheel means that they have to be in the same place at the same time (impossible). So, they developed the form, which is a TURN at a specific angle and then march a specific number of paces and stop. You then wait for the rest of the formation to catch up. This is why it is easier to do a 90degree of 45degree form. A 17.3 degree or 113.4 degree form is extremely complex and wouldn't be made. How do you give that command? "Regiment, at the halt, 113.4 degree left form"? What does the marker say then? "What did he say? 113.4 degree? Hang on, I didn't bring my protractor!" Keeping that in mind, leads me to my second point;

Secondly, a unit that has done a form is (for the time they are IN the form) are effectively severely disordered. No commander in their right mind would consider a formation change like that within proximity of the enemy. You would want to be 'out of the form' by the time enemy were going to be threatening you.

Considering the above two points of mine, we cannot go changing the rules, but I would say that if you can't complete the 'wheel' and get out of the 'kinked column' that you yourself put yourself in then 'tough nuggies'. You SHOULD have to continue straight ahead until such time as the tail is past the point of the kink at which time you could do whatever you want. Now, if the rules allow you to expand OUT of a kinked column then so be it, but if you can't expand because of proximity to enemy (or friends) then perhaps you should have thought of that in the previous turn when you got all kinky.

Sorry - that's utter rubbish - the British wheeled in Napoleonics (or Wellingtonic as somebody pointed out to me) all the time.

The command would be Regiment, left Wheel. When enough had been done they simply stopped.

It also happened in the American Civil War all the time.

dave_r wrote:Sorry - that's utter rubbish - the British wheeled in Napoleonics (or Wellingtonic as somebody pointed out to me) all the time.

The command would be Regiment, left Wheel. When enough had been done they simply stopped.

It also happened in the American Civil War all the time.

I'm sorry - that's utter rubbish.


How can THIS wheel?

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Direction of march up the page (or down, it doesn't matter).

Remembering that the front of a base in FoG is MANY men across, not just 4 little lead figures.

It CAN'T wheel, because while #'s 2 is waiting for #1 to complete the move, #4 and 6 is standing on top of him.

Thus, it MUST be a form:

The form is described in this 1915 drill manual on page 51.

You'll notice that (from my picture) 4 and 6 would do an incline, (so, incidentally would the entire front rank. They then march out the required spacing and then stop. During this whole time the formation ISN'T formed. It's not totally unformed, but it's NOT 'battle ready'.

http://www.army.gov.au/Our-history/Prim ... 914_UK.pdf

So, lets say that the figure photographed at the top of this thread was on the battlefield in real life, it would be something like this:

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All facing up the page 'in column' but it's not in column, it's in a series of battle lines that LOOK like a column in the game, but NO battle formation was 3 men wide.

If THAT wheeled, you'd end up with the last '6' trying to share place with the first '2' and everyone in front of him.