Slitherine

David Mitchell is hilarious

KeldorKatarn wrote:Maybe, but as I said: I don't see either how this game is ok for underage players. I don't even see what the problem is, I'd say most of your target audience is 30+ to 40+.

I've start playing wargames before I was 18. And I've always loved historical accuracy.
Never come to my mind, that if I was playing by the German side, I was glorifying Nazism. And believe me, I had already read some parts of Mein Kampf at the age of 15, so I was quiet aware of the ideology.
If a young feels the need too glorify Nazism he will get a way, to do it with or without using a game. So if I was young, in Germany, yes I would have felt that I was getting punished.
I think this is a false question, although you've touched some fair points.

Well I AM a german and here people don't feel that way. Also it is not up to teenagers to decide whether this is appropriate for them. I played a lot of FPS games before I was 18 also, probably also watched more than one action movie that was 18+. But that doesn't mean I think such media should be allowed for teenagers in general. In general I think the judgment for these types of games is absolutely correct. Besides, if a parent feels that their children are perfectly capable of dealing with such a movie or game, nobody will stop them from buying it for them. But I'd say it is a bad idea to allow such games or movies to be bought BY teenagers or kids without consulting their parents first. So I think 18+ is perfectly valid here.

KeldorKatarn wrote:Well I AM a german and here people don't feel that way.

Not all German. Some which I had the pleasure to speak with, don't agree. I agree that probably they are a minority.

KeldorKatarn wrote:Also it is not up to teenagers to decide whether this is appropriate for them. I played a lot of FPS games before I was 18 also, probably also watched more than one action movie that was 18+. But that doesn't mean I think such media should be allowed for teenagers in general. In general I think the judgment for these types of games is absolutely correct. Besides, if a parent feels that their children are perfectly capable of dealing with such a movie or game, nobody will stop them from buying it for them. But I'd say it is a bad idea to allow such games or movies to be bought BY teenagers or kids without consulting their parents first. So I think 18+ is perfectly valid here.

I have a lot of doubts with the fairness of this. Really.
What about sex before 18? Teenage pregnancy? Smoking before 18?

Whar about driving a car... owning a weapon... joining the military or the police... marrying... adopting a child... being fully responsible for ones crimes in front of a court

There are minimum ages for all of those and not all of them are the same across countries. germany has ages for those, including playing certain games. And if you want to sell games in these countries you simply have to accept those just like when you want to drive a car there or adopt a child or marry.

Of course not all people will agree that all those ages are 100% correct. Probably no population agrees on all of that for their country. But that doesn't mean you can go ahead and blame a country just because you don't like what the general agreement in that country is.

All I was saying is that Germany's general agreement is that war games and games that treat war and especially the Nazi regime in a very casual way are inappropriate to underage gamers and that if such gamers want to play them, their parents need to agree and buy them for their kids. That's the agreement and I personally concurr. And everybody who wants to sell games in Germany has to live with that. That's not saying that the German way is always the right one or that nobody has the right to disagree. It DOES mean however that if you want to sell your stuff there, those are the rules. And blaming German organizations for being sooo unfair and even mistaken them for the "authorities" which they are not is simply pointless. And saying Germans ignore their past is also simply wrong.

Those are the points I was trying to make, nothing more.

I don't say that every teenager is unable to handle such games. All I'm saying is: They're not legal adults. In most countries nobody is fully adult before 18. And that's for a reason that most countries agree upon. if such a kid wants to play that game it is up to their parents to decide whether that is ok, just like they decide what their kid is allowed to spend his/her money on or how long they are allowed to stay out on weekends. A game rating is not a law, it is a recommendation and it prevents youngsters from simply getting stuff without consulting their parents that might not be appropriate. If their parents are ok with it, then it is no problem to get them. But I agree that this is a game that I wouldn't want my kids to simply buy without consulting me first. In fact I'd like to know about every single game they buy until they are 18.

So sorry again, I don't see what the big fuss is all about. germany recommends this game for adults only, allowing parents to overrule that if they want to. So what's the problem with that again?

Back to topic please guys, and now for something completely different:

Scott900091 wrote:

Still German authorities have given us the 18+ age rating last year, a real farce, their motivation: our logo contains an eagle, yes, the German Imperial eagle that is the symbol for German states for hundred of years and is absolutely not unique for the Nazi period, on top it is currently still used in the official German flag!

That's crazy! It must be weird living in Germany having to pretend the past never happened. In my opinion all these historical war games that Slitherine/Matrix games publishes are basically educational as well as for entertainment. Maybe they should call them educational war games then maybe the German censorship law wouldn't apply?

It's the same farcical ideas about anything "Confederate" here in the USA. The Confederate Battle Flag, third version known as the Stars and Bars is considered Politically Incorrect and offensive to most idiotic, misinformed, race card playing, concrete headed and historically obtuse individuals. Yeah................. it all never happened even thought it made us what we are today for better or worse.

Last fall a number of us, myself included, invited members of DMP to come and share and visit us in the Scenario Design section of the Forum. DMP is a mostly German forum and is an outstanding place for anything dealing with Panzer Corps. A number of the members were hesitant to visit until we welcomed them and assured them that being German and talking, modding and playing with Panzer Corps was a mutually enjoyable hobby and activity with everyone. We held and hold NO prejudice against anyone who is enthusiastic about the game. As a result we now have regular participation from members from the DMP forum, notably Churchlakecity who has his own thread in the Scenario Design section and has contributed many many new icon units, skins and other input and modding information we would not have otherwise. The DMP moderators also actively participate.

It's ironic how many of the German members of that forum have downloaded the historically accurate SS and German artwork,etc. from our mods and have simply not paid attention to the ridiculous laws governing such trivial things from the German government. If a law makes no sense, most people just work around it to suit their needs no matter what country.

KeldorKatarn wrote:Well I AM a german and here people don't feel that way. Also it is not up to teenagers to decide whether this is appropriate for them. I played a lot of FPS games before I was 18 also, probably also watched more than one action movie that was 18+. But that doesn't mean I think such media should be allowed for teenagers in general. In general I think the judgment for these types of games is absolutely correct. Besides, if a parent feels that their children are perfectly capable of dealing with such a movie or game, nobody will stop them from buying it for them. But I'd say it is a bad idea to allow such games or movies to be bought BY teenagers or kids without consulting their parents first. So I think 18+ is perfectly valid here.

The prob is not so much that there are age limits for games, movies, or whatnot in general. But they should make some sense, and not be applied arbitrarily.

PzC has a rather abstract depiction of war&violence, unlike FPS, like Civ maybe. Which has age 6 IIRC as rating in Germany. And we can't even nuke stuff and raze cities in PzC.

As for the whole "keeping NS content out " thing - the intention may be good, but how it is done in practice is often absurd.

I think you have to keep in mind that Germany has a unique perspective to this situation. Although WWII affected the entire world, Germany was ground-zero. And also keep in mind that this was not just a typical war by European standards. Europe is no stranger to war... They have had them for centuries. But this one involved horrors and atroscities on a scale previously unseen. Yes, there were horrors and atroscities through the centuries, but in the 20th century the human race had evolved and was supposed to be more civilized.

Combine that with the fact that 1/2 the German population alive today lived through all of that, and sure, I can see them being sensitive, and even heavy-handed and unfair about nazi's and swastikas.

Yeah................. it all never happened even thought it made us what we are today for better or worse.

I made a very idiotic and insensitive comment. Some of us Americans tend to be a bit ignorant about the long lasting effects WWII had on Germany and other European nations. Again I apologize.

Let us also keep in mind that symbols, by their very nature, have different meanings for different people, depending on their background and experience. As a white American Southerner, for example, I can assure you that non-historical display of the Confederate battle flag evokes radically different feelings and emotions in different people. For many, it evokes regional pride, community spirit, outdoor sports, and Southern music, and seeing the Stars and Bars makes them feel good. For others--including for many white Southerners--the flag evokes memories of slavery, the Ku Klux Klan, segregation, and racism, and seeing the Stars and Bars makes them feel bad. Neither response is "the right one"; our emotional reactions are what they are. And neither interpretation is going away any time soon. It would be astonishing if World War II-era symbols did not evoke different emotional responses from different people as well.

robman wrote:Neither response is "the right one"; our emotional reactions are what they are. And neither interpretation is going away any time soon.

True. But the real issue is the desire of many to violently suppress the other party's response. This is what is at heart the disconnect between American, English, and many other's view of Germany's collective take on the Swastika. And to an almost similar level, many Russians' views on the same. It's one thing to fight intolerance or ignorance, but another to simply make it simply illegal.

And it doesn't have to be illegal. The German press and forced a Russian baritone singer out of this year's Bayreuth festival because they felt his chest tattoo was Nazi. And it's not - here's a relatively objective story on Nikitin (the Russian singer) and his tattoo.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/02/arts/ ... stika.html

Recently I have be re-reading William Shirer's "the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich." Let's be clear - Nazi's were horrible. But it doesn't make all German's horrible, but neither does it mean their intolerance of other views should be imitated by their successors, which unfortunately has become the case. Do go look at Nikitin's tattoo in the link above. It was "Swastka-like" enough to force him out of a world-class singing performance in "The Flying Dutchman."

To make this even more bizarre, my girlfriend was totally on the side of stopping him from performing. And she's Russian - and not even of that generation, only 31. But in-grained ideas of what's right and wrong trump common sense in most cases.

Kamerer wrote:And it doesn't have to be illegal. The German press and forced a Russian baritone singer out of this year's Bayreuth festival because they felt his chest tattoo was Nazi. And it's not - here's a relatively objective story on Nikitin (the Russian singer) and his tattoo.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/02/arts/ ... stika.html

Not a swastika?

Do go look at Nikitin's tattoo in the link above. It was "Swastka-like" enough to force him out of a world-class singing performance in "The Flying Dutchman."

Do take a good look at the video stills that weren't in the "relatively objective" link above that actually caused the controversy:

Mr. Nikitin repeated assertions he had made after the initial controversy that the tattoo had never depicted a swastika. He said the tattoo artist stopped while coloring in the sides.

“I started bleeding,” Mr. Nikitin added. He said he finally had it finished either early this year or in the spring; he could not remember exactly when.

And it just happened as the tattoo artist completed 4 even length black bars running from 4 equaly space points on this star to the mid point point of a line from point to point? As a graphic designer I don't buy it. There would be outlines if not for the entire star, at least for the square he was actually colouring. And the area coloured would have looked much more random if the artist had truly unexpectedly had to stop midway through.

Then again maybe I'm biased and am casting sinister interpretation on what was really an innocent artistic endevor:

http://youtu.be/dMkzdn2TDuI

It's a swastika, or close enough. The swastika itself is not "evil" - it was used in churches near Hitler's home and in eastern faiths it is a symbol of life. The relevance of the symbol is its perceived meaning. In Germany, and elsewhere, its meaning has been completely superseded and is associated strongly with evil. I imagine, not being German, that the law is a recognition of this, as well as being a protection for those who may be deeply offended by it and as a means to help to militate against the glorification of the ideals it represented.

I'm sure that under the right circumstances new symbols and old symbols will be used again and there is no written law that will prevent or mitigate it.
That also reminds me that the forbidden fruit always taste better. And sometimes these laws which are made to protect its citizens they backfire instead, like the prohibition of alcohol.
This is a matter, like so many others, that doesn't have a clear consensus and it will remain like that for a long time.

Opinion and eventually "truth" changes with time. Alexander III is not looked at as an insane evil bastard by anyone but countries in the middle east; William Wallace is no longer branded a terrorist. Given the information available to anyone willing to make amendments to their gradeschool brainwashing, opinions and eventually the "truth" about Hitler and WW2 will change as well.

4kEY wrote:Opinion and eventually "truth" changes with time. Alexander III is not looked at as an insane evil bastard by anyone but countries in the middle east; William Wallace is no longer branded a terrorist. Given the information available to anyone willing to make amendments to their gradeschool brainwashing, opinions and eventually the "truth" about Hitler and WW2 will change as well.

We might be opening a can of worms with this new "truth", or new "fake", in this thread. And I really as a moderator, wouldn't like to see it derailed from an already hot topic.

+1000