Slitherine

stockwellpete wrote:This is the bit of the Wikipedia article I was going by. Obviously you need to have two or three corroborative sources before you can fully be sure of something, so this text may not be correct . . .

"After the Moldavian loss of Chilia and Cetatea Albă, the Ottoman threat seemed more evident. John Albert was suzerain of Moldavia, and, when Ştefan asked him for military assistance, they met, in 1494 at the conference of Levoča, where together with King Ladislaus II of Hungary and Elector Johann Cicero of Brandenburg, they forged plans for an expedition against the Porte. The objective was to recapture Chilia and Cetatea Albă. However, in unexplained circumstances, Ştefan received reports from Hungary that John Albert prepared to place his own brother, the Polish prince Sigismund (later king, as Sigismund I the Old), on the Moldavian throne."

So according to this, the Hungarians "tipped off" Stefan about Polish intentions. True or false? Who can say?

Well, I have never heard about this from any other place than wikipedia. And even in wikipedia, that statement has been sitting tehre with a "citation needed" tag since 2007. >.>

Yes, it is extremely vague. In the Wikipedia page about Stephen III, there is this . . .

"Stefan received reports from Hungary that John Albert prepared to place his own brother, the Polish prince Sigismund (later king, as Sigismund I the Old), on the Moldavian throne. By 1497 John Albert managed to gather 80,000 men and was preparing for the expedition when Stefan invaded Galicia and pillaged it. The plans for the Ottoman invasion were put aside and John Albert went against Moldavia instead."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_III_of_Moldavia

And the "reports" from Hungary are mentioned here too . . .

http://romerica.com/rom/hist_emp_ad1490 ... Albert1497

I suppose that a good question to ask here is "why did Stephen invade Galicia at the moment when preparations to fight the Ottomans were well advanced?"

Well, I'm not the foremost expert on this period, but the wikipedia info concernign tehse events are bogus. From what I recall, Moldavian Troops entered Poland only after that battle, not before.

I think Stephen was in a hard political situation, probably also facing internal dissent. He was one of the people who originally crafted taht anti-Turkish alliance back in 1494, but he seems to have changed his mind later on. Probably the Turks promiesed him something, or gave him a better offer. Perhaps it was supposed to be an ambush from day 1? His motives are unclear, as history showed that Turkey was a far greater threat to Moldavian independance than Poland or Hungary ever were.

Janos (John) Hunyadi - Famous Hungarian general responsible for a number of victories over larger Ottoman forces. He established the basis of the Hungarian Black Army and his son Matthias Corvinus succeeded to the Hungarian throne after his death. His opponent Sultan Mehmet II paid him the tribute:"Although he was my enemy I feel grief over his death, because the world has never seen such a man."

Chris

batesmotel wrote:Janos (John) Hunyadi - Famous Hungarian general responsible for a number of victories over larger Ottoman forces. He established the basis of the Hungarian Black Army and his son Matthias Corvinus succeeded to the Hungarian throne after his death. His opponent Sultan Mehmet II paid him the tribute:"Although he was my enemy I feel grief over his death, because the world has never seen such a man."

Chris

Yes, another good one. I'll update the list on Sunday.

Charlton ("El Cid") Heston should clearly be on the list as well. His reputation and charisma were so great that he could even lead his army to victory as a corpse tied onto his horse!

Actually, the historic Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar seems to have been quite a gifted commander and lead Spanish troops to numerous victories over the Moors (and also on occasion against other Christians).

Chris

Yes, I would second Hunyadi's nomination. He lost at the decisive battle of Warna in 1444, but that was hardly his fault. The italian fleet betrayed the european allies and instead helped the turks to transport their army (not for free however). The european alliance was outnumbered 20 000 to 60 000 and even then Hunyadi managed to at least brake away and save many of his own soldiers.
So while he missed his chance to be the "Napoleon of XVth century", he still fared prettyw ell given the very dire circumstances.

batesmotel wrote:Charlton ("El Cid") Heston should clearly be on the list as well. His reputation and charisma were so great that he could even lead his army to victory as a corpse tied onto his horse!

Actually, the historic Rodrigo Díaz de Vivar seems to have been quite a gifted commander and lead Spanish troops to numerous victories over the Moors (and also on occasion against other Christians).

Chris

But he lived between 1043-1099 so he just falls outside our period, otherwise he would have been included.

A few more suggestions . . .

Alexander Nevsky
1220-1263, Prince of Novgorod and Vladimir, victor at Neva 1240 and Lake Peipus 1242.

Sten Sture the Elder
1440-1503, Regent of Sweden, victor at Brunkeberg 1471, vanquisher of Russians 1495-7.

Edward I
1239-1307, King of England, victor at Evesham 1265, Crusader, conqueror of Wales 1282/3 and 1294, victor at Berwick 1296, Dunbar 1297 and Falkirk 1298.

Stockwell Pete you put forward Edward The Black Prince and mention himself at Crecy?
Surely his Dad was more likely to be commanding there - and surely his Dad , Edward III is a contender as both a strategist and tactician?

Edward III :-
Halidon Hill (aged 20) then Scotland over-run and subdued to Perth.
Sluys - on boats in the channel.
Crossing the Somme - Blanchetaque.
Crecy.
Calais.
The channel again - against the Castillians.
Scotland again - Edinburgh sacked and burnt.

Not suggesting the Black Prince should not be in your list in his own right but I am suggesting Edward III is missing.

Triarius wrote:Stockwell Pete you put forward Edward The Black Prince and mention himself at Crecy?
Surely his Dad was more likely to be commanding there - and surely his Dad , Edward III is a contender as both a strategist and tactician?

Edward III :-
Halidon Hill (aged 20) then Scotland over-run and subdued to Perth.
Sluys - on boats in the channel.
Crossing the Somme - Blanchetaque.
Crecy.
Calais.
The channel again - against the Castillians.
Scotland again - Edinburgh sacked and burnt.

Not suggesting the Black Prince should not be in your list in his own right but I am suggesting Edward III is missing.

Yes, I was going to post something on this because I thought I had made a mistake in the Black Prince's entry. I will correct it tomorrow when I update the list and I will add Edward III too. Thanks Mike.

Ardaeshir wrote:Yes, I would second Hunyadi's nomination. He lost at the decisive battle of Warna in 1444, but that was hardly his fault. The italian fleet betrayed the european allies and instead helped the turks to transport their army (not for free however). The european alliance was outnumbered 20 000 to 60 000 and even then Hunyadi managed to at least brake away and save many of his own soldiers.
So while he missed his chance to be the "Napoleon of XVth century", he still fared prettyw ell given the very dire circumstances.

Those numbers for the Ottoman army at the battle of Varna are greatly inflated, the Ottoman army barely outnumbered the crusaders, Murad II clearly outgeneraled Hunyadi.

Aryaman wrote:

Ardaeshir wrote:Yes, I would second Hunyadi's nomination. He lost at the decisive battle of Warna in 1444, but that was hardly his fault. The italian fleet betrayed the european allies and instead helped the turks to transport their army (not for free however). The european alliance was outnumbered 20 000 to 60 000 and even then Hunyadi managed to at least brake away and save many of his own soldiers.
So while he missed his chance to be the "Napoleon of XVth century", he still fared prettyw ell given the very dire circumstances.

Those numbers for the Ottoman army at the battle of Varna are greatly inflated, the Ottoman army barely outnumbered the crusaders, Murad II clearly outgeneraled Hunyadi.

Sources? The 20 000 vs 60 000 are mentioned in hungarian sources. If you want another estimate, then Podhorecki mentions 19 000 europeans (Hungarians, Poles, Wallachians, Transylvanians, German mercenaries) versus some 48 000 -50 000 turks (depending on how numerous were the Rumelian spahis contingent).

Ardaeshir wrote:

Aryaman wrote:

Ardaeshir wrote:Yes, I would second Hunyadi's nomination. He lost at the decisive battle of Warna in 1444, but that was hardly his fault. The italian fleet betrayed the european allies and instead helped the turks to transport their army (not for free however). The european alliance was outnumbered 20 000 to 60 000 and even then Hunyadi managed to at least brake away and save many of his own soldiers.
So while he missed his chance to be the "Napoleon of XVth century", he still fared prettyw ell given the very dire circumstances.

Those numbers for the Ottoman army at the battle of Varna are greatly inflated, the Ottoman army barely outnumbered the crusaders, Murad II clearly outgeneraled Hunyadi.

Sources? The 20 000 vs 60 000 are mentioned in hungarian sources. If you want another estimate, then Podhorecki mentions 19 000 europeans (Hungarians, Poles, Wallachians, Transylvanians, German mercenaries) versus some 48 000 -50 000 turks (depending on how numerous were the Rumelian spahis contingent).

The sources for the battle are christian writers, you have only their estimations for the Ottomans, they go from 40.000 (Constatin Antoche) to 60.000. However you can judge how they miss off the mark when they say only the Kapikulu numbered 15.000, while we don´t have documentary evidence for the campaign, an example will serve. In 1527, under Suleiman the Magnificent when the Ottoman Empire was considerably larger, the total establishment of Sipahi and Janissaries added 16.527, and you have to deduct from that 3.553 Janissary Cadets and the administrative officers. For a campaign it is doubtful he could mobilize 11.000 in all, and for Murad II 60 years before probably no more than 5.000. Given the lateness of season, Timariot and Akinci ranks would be depleted.
Rhoads Murphey estimate that Ottoman armies in the early 16th century to be around 30.000, I think it is reasonable to think that Murad II had less than 20.000.
BTW I think the crusader army, despite the detailed account of national contingents, is also inflated.

BTW I think the crusader army, despite the detailed account of national contingents, is also inflated.

It is possible that both armies are somewhat inflated, especailly that period sources often make little or no distinction between combatants and non-combatants in the armies.
I still doubt that the numbers were even. If it had been so, then Valdislav would not have died in the middle of the battle.He didnt die from a random shot like Harold at Hastings, he died because his knights and bodyguard unit were encircled and wiped out. From surviving accounts we know that his cavalry broke through the turkish ranks, but then engaged and was encircled by the janissaries held in reserve. If the numbers had been equal, the turkish army would not have a reserve numerous enough to encircle, contain and then destroy the royal cavalry contingent.
Its not probable for a ruler to die encircled if both armies had equal numbers. If they had, it would be likely taht the king would die during retreat, but not encircled after a sucessfull brakethrough.

Updated list. There are 23 names here so far. I will let the list develop for another week or so, in case we have missed out anyone important. Then we will have to try and whittle it down to just twenty. After that I'll come up with a way of picking the FOG Top 5 Inspired Medieval Commanders.

Alfonso I of Aragon ("the Battler")
1073-1134, Crusader/"Reconquista", victor at Valtierra 1106, Zaragoza 1118 and Cutanda 1120.

Bolesław III Piast
1086-1138, Prince of Poland, victor at Hunsfeld and Glogow (both 1109), Trutina 1110 and conqueror of Pomerania by 1122.

Saladin
1138-1194, Sultan of Egypt and Syria, founder of Ayyubid dynasty, victor at Hattin and siege of Jerusalem both 1187.

Richard I of England ("the Lionheart")
1157-1199, King of England from 1189, Crusader, defeated rebellions in Aquitaine and Angouleme, victor at Messina 1190, in Cyprus 1191, at Arsuf 1191 and Gisors 1198.

Genghis Khan
1162-1227, founder of Mongol Empire, conqueror of Western Xia (by 1209) and Jin dynasties (by 1215), Kara-Khitan Khanate (by 1218) and Khwarezmid Empire (by 1221).

Alexander Nevsky
1220-1263, Prince of Novgorod and Vladimir, victor at Neva 1240 and Lake Peipus 1242.

Baibars
1223-1277, Mamluk, sultan of Egypt from 1260, victor at Ain Jalut 1260, Arsuf 1265, Haifa 1265, Taffa 1268, Antioch 1268, Ashkelon 1270, Elbistan 1277, defeater of Seventh Crusade led by Louis IX.

Charles of Anjou
1226-1285, King of Sicily from 1266 to 1282, Crusader, victor at Benevento 1266, Tagliacozzo 1268, re-conquest of Albania by 1272.

Edward I
1239-1307, King of England, victor at Evesham 1265, Crusader, conqueror of Wales 1282/3 and 1294, victor at Berwick 1296, Dunbar 1297 and Falkirk 1298.

Robert the Bruce
1274-1329, King of Scotland, victor at Bannockburn 1314.

Edward III
1312-1377, King of England, victor at Halidon Hill 1333, Sluys 1340, Crecy 1346 and Calais 1347.

Edward, the Black Prince
1330-1376, Prince of Wales, victor at Poitiers 1356 and Najera (Spain) 1367.

Bertrand du Guesclin
1320-1380, Breton, Constable of France, defender of Rennes, victor at Monteil (Spain) 1369, Pontvallain 1370, Chize 1373.

Jan Ziska
1360-1424, Hussite (Taborite), military innovator using war wagons as "tanks", unbeaten in battle, at Grunwald-Tannenberg 1410, leader in Bohemian and Hussite civil wars.

Timur (Tamerlane)
1336-1405, founder of Timurid Dynasty, conqueror of Volga Bulgarians, Persians, the Golden Horde, northern India, the Mamluks in Syria, Ottoman Turks in Anatolia, victor at Kondurcha River 1391, Terek River 1395 and Ankara 1402.

Dmitry Ivanovich Donskoy (Dimytry I)
Grand Prince of Moscow 1359-1389, victor at Kulikovo.

Owain Glyndwr
(?) 1359-1416 (?), the last Welsh Prince of Wales, superb guerilla leader, leader of the Welsh Revolt 1400-1412, never captured.


Henry V
1386-1422, King of England from 1413, victor at Agincourt 1415.

Murad II
1404-1451, Sultan of the Ottoman Empire from 1421, military reformer, conqueror of Anatolian Turks and Serbs, victor at Varna 1444 and 2nd Kosovo 1448.

Janos Hunyadi
1407-56, Regent-Governor of Hungary, victor at Semendria 1441, Nagyszeben and Iron Gates 1442, Sofia and Snaim 1443 and Belgrade 1456.

Stephen III
1433-1504, Prince of Moldavia, defender of Moldavian independence, victor at Baia 1467, Lipnic, 1470, Vaslui 1475 and Codrii Cosminului 1497.

Sten Sture the Elder
1440-1503, Regent of Sweden, victor at Brunkeberg 1471, vanquisher of Russians 1495-7.

Edward IV
1442-1483, King of England from 1461, victor at Mortimer's Cross 1461, Towton 1461, Barnet 1471 and Tewkesbury 1471.

Ardaeshir wrote:

BTW I think the crusader army, despite the detailed account of national contingents, is also inflated.

It is possible that both armies are somewhat inflated, especailly that period sources often make little or no distinction between combatants and non-combatants in the armies.
I still doubt that the numbers were even. If it had been so, then Valdislav would not have died in the middle of the battle.He didnt die from a random shot like Harold at Hastings, he died because his knights and bodyguard unit were encircled and wiped out. From surviving accounts we know that his cavalry broke through the turkish ranks, but then engaged and was encircled by the janissaries held in reserve. If the numbers had been equal, the turkish army would not have a reserve numerous enough to encircle, contain and then destroy the royal cavalry contingent.
Its not probable for a ruler to die encircled if both armies had equal numbers. If they had, it would be likely taht the king would die during retreat, but not encircled after a sucessfull brakethrough.

It is not uncommon for a king to die in battle surrounded by enemies, because they are a focal point for the enemy forces. It is possible that the crusader army was so inflated that instead of 20k it was aroun 10k, although usually firendly forces are better informed, but it is clear that the Ottoman army was under 20K just from logical recounting.

George Kastrioti Skanderbeg
1405-68, Lord of Kruje (Albania), leader of League of Lezhe, superb guerilla fighter against the Ottomans, victor at Torvioll 1444, Ochrid 1445, Otonete 1446, Diber 1448, Ujebardha 1457 and Vajkal 1465 (twice).

Louis I
1326-1382, King of Hungary, defeated Golden Horde 1345-7, victor at Capua 1348, defeated Serbs in 1349 and 1354, victor at Naples 1350, defeated Lithuanians 1350-2, annexed Moldavia 1352, conqueror of Dalmatia 1357/8, annexed Vidin 1365 and defeated Ottomans in Wallachia 1374.

Two more candidates . . .

Stefan Uros IV Dusan
1308-1355, King of Serbia, conqueror of Byzantine territories in the Balkans, founder of Serbian Empire, defeater of Bosnians, Croatians and Hungarians.

Mehmed II, the Conqueror
1432-1481, Sultan 1444-6 and 1451-81, conqueror of Constantinople 1453, Morea 1460, Trebizond 1461, Bosnia 1463 and Albania 1478; victor at Otlukbeli 1473 and Valea Alba 1476.