Slitherine

Hello everyone,

First - I am so glad to see this game progressing to a final stage AND that it resembles so much of what PG was. I cannot remember how often I played PG, AG and PGII until it became more and more troublesome to get them running on state of the art rigs.

Anyway my first impressions after just playing the first poland scenario on v 0.99 :

What I immediately liked:

+PG feeling overall
+combat losses well balanced and not too high as in other hex games (where a single unit attack would wipe out an entire unit) - but will have to observe this further.
+difficulty on seargent (2nd difficulty is OK) finished the first scenario in 9 turns with no total unit loss - despite my complete lack of experience with PzC.

What others already posted as problematic:

-I agree with RobertCL about the colors being too "green" for the country and the purchase windows being too "dark" in contrast. I think the original SSI PG coders made the "fade" green and very light grey tones on purpose to avoid that.
-I agree that highlighting the currently attacking/attacked unit should be done/improved somehow. Hard to tell whats going on during AI turns.



What is missing/should be added or changed IMO:
1) Please give more information on the differences of the difficulty levels, for example a pop up telling what the advantages/disadvantages of AI will be. Is there a "neutral" setting difficulty ?
2) I cannot distinguish CORE and AUX units. I hope this is not intentional ?
3) Please enlarge the golden bars around the flag icons in victory hexes or make them somehow more "perceptive". Perhaps enlarge all flag icons in size on hexes ? I find them too "tiny" atm.
4) I am definitely missing any kind of "information" bar showing a short summary of the combat events. Currently combat just takes place and you have too look very closely on what really happened. In PG there was a small "notification" bar at the top part of the map where a summary of the combat was posted like "ATT: 5killed 3 supressed - DEF: 0killed 2 suppressed
5) Pioniere and similar infantry ignore entrechment is that correct ? If so it would make sense to make an additional icon (or text) to show that capability on all unit related parts (at least add this to the purchase window)
I assume other units have "special" skills as well - so these should be shown somewhere definitely.
6) The Pz IIIE is not purchasable ? Not even in Poland, shouldn't that be purchasable there ? What about (early) Pz IVs - at least in Norway ?
7) Does upgrading really cost the same amount as if I purchased a new unit ? Especially harsh I find as I also loose all experience AND overstrength and do not even get the prestige for the old unit back. IMO a little too harsh, at least give a price discount on the unit or do not loose ALL experience.
Units that moved+fired are completely unselectable. Is that intended ?
9) I can't tell what the difference between Tactical Bomber and Strategic Bomber is - apart from different stats values. Is there any difference ? If no difference why keep 2 different unit classes in the purchase menu ?
In PG Strategic Bombers reduced enemy prestige when bombing cities - is that valid in PzC ? Can't tell since no "combat feedback" whatsoever is obtained during game and the ctrl+click previes does not mention anything extraordinary like that.

1 I believe it is planned
2 I agree the silver border needs to be wider
3 I agree, very hard to tell
4 use the L key
5 Just Pioneers/ engineers

Yep, move and shoot
Bombers, Oh... there is a difference, practice and you will see.
Yes prestige is killed, use the L key for Last combat

Iscaran wrote: 7) Does upgrading really cost the same amount as if I purchased a new unit ? Especially harsh I find as I also loose all experience AND overstrength and do not even get the prestige for the old unit back. IMO a little too harsh, at least give a price discount on the unit or do not loose ALL experience.

You do not lose any experience or overstrength when upgrading. That is the whole point of upgrade. There was a certain exp penalty in earlier versions, but it does not exist any more.

2 I agree the silver border needs to be wider

There is a silver border around AUX units ?!? or CORE ? Well I really tried to distinguish them, I only have a 1280x1024 display so maybe everything is just too small here.

OK, will try the L key next time.

Also nice would be if there was ANY information about the time frame left to get decisive victory, normal victory etc.
There are different victory types right ? At least the briefing officer seemed to tell me this...

Just a sidenote - the briefing is only text right now.

Will it be audio, like it was in PG at a later stage ? That would be awesome I think, if you could make it with those wacky accents the briefing officers had in PG, AG, PGII....*ahhh memories*

@Iscaran

A lot of your ideas are in The List, have a look there, and if you feel if anything is missing, mention it in that thread. Helps us organize better.
viewtopic.php?t=24157

Hi,

I continue my own list:

* SDKFZ 10/4 has wrong sound (foot movement ?)
* There should be a mode AI vs AI as it exists in PGF so that newbies could just see a scenario and discover it before trying their first attempt and better discover the map.
* I can just repeat the colors should be more light, this was the success of PGF, the original PG and AG. This is valid for map and menus. All is still too dark.
* Do 335 Pfeil has wrong stats and should be a fighter only (in game you made it equivalent as FW190 G)
* Ju 87D icon must be changed, because the icon of Ju 87 B you use is wrong historically
* You use IS3 icon for IS2 tanks, historical mistake. Icon is superb --> use also IS3 in game (not a problem if it was not used, I can use it in a standalone scenario between USA and USSR in 1946)!
* Furthermore you completely ignored IS1 tank!
* Don't understand why you don't use He 129 (famous in Kursk) and also Me 262 B (as fighter-bomber) (Me-262A-2a Sturmvogel (Storm Bird)", it was fitted with two stores pylons under the forward fuselage for two 250 kilogram (550 pound) general-purpose or cluster bombs, and only had the upper pair of MK-108 30 millimeter cannon).
* Please create a huge Europe map, it should be fun to play the entire war on a unique but huge map! Here air recon could play a great role!
* Again if you want to see the map after the complete scenario end (Gustav line) you see it and the screen is freezing, impossible to click on the button to stop properly the scenario, you have to leave the game. This is a bug!
* Gustav line: I destroyed all Allied units except ships and I have to waste my time during more than 10 turns. When all VHs are taken the scenario should end like the old PG or PGF. It seems you have still a lot to learn from the previous games, please stick to the phisolophy of old games otherwise failure is certain! Sorry to be so frank!

Additional scenarios tested:
* Kiev
* East Coast USA
* Gustav line

For the rest this is an excellent game if bugs are corrected!

V 0.999

Campaign tested:
* Sergeant: East 1943

PROs
* I love leaders
* I love Waffen SS units


To be improved
* Units with a medal should perhaps wear it (a small third marking like amo or jerrycan)
* All I mentioned in the previous post is still valid (wrong icon for Ju 87D, Do 335 Pfeil is NOT a fighter-bomber, ...)
* Your Me 109K has lost its great "up" image in menus
* If you are not clicking on "proceed" but on "watch field" after a campaign scenario then the game freezes sometimes and you must quit the game then load the axis autosave in order to replay last turn and then to click to proceed. This is a bug!!!

RobertCL wrote:* If you are not clicking on "proceed" but on "watch field" after a campaign scenario then the game freezes sometimes and you must quit the game then load the axis autosave in order to replay last turn and then to click to proceed. This is a bug!!!

Did you try hitting 'end turn' again after you're done reviewing the battlefield? That seems to progress the game for me just fine.

Yes I clicked on end but also on ALT E, the problem still persists.

However I admit I begin to love the game despite some issues you should resolve before selling the product.

BTW you should add a Sevastopol scenario because it existed in the original PG game and here you could add a few railguns for this specific scenario.

Does this problem persist in newly started campaigns? It could be a problem with backwards compatibility from old BETAs.

Yes. I never use old saved games and always start a campaign from scratch using the new version.

So, for the first 30 seconds I liked the game.

Played the tutorial scenario. Liked the game play. Now the units move differently, not sure on that.

After completing the tuturial I am now taking on the long campaign.
1. The games are harder to win- even with a decisive victory there are never enough hexes in the next scenario to deploy all the units. Seems harder to kill enemy units now.
2. I like the extra units you get as a bonus. Nice.
3. Leaders- there needs to be some way- like in PG- of showing leaders. And an easier way of checking on what the units ability is.
4. Hard to click on enemy units and tell what you are facing.
5. Need an easier interface for upgrades. And a manual that tells you how to delete units and add units.

The first couple of hours I have been glued to PC. Outstanding!

Oh, still hate the right mouse button click thing.

rockymtnjay wrote:Oh, still hate the right mouse button click thing.

Options, Mouse Interface, Classic.

Sevastopol is included in Stalingrad in fact but I still miss this PG scenario.
It seems the white arrow illustrating movement slows down the game a little bit.

After Moscow 41 I am now sent to Stalingrad.
I have a lot of leaders.

Leutnant rank is fine but Sergeant rank should keep AI units with a strength of 10 instead of 5 (and human players' units with a full experience of 5 stars of course).
Current Sergeant rank should become corporal rank.

Scenario design tool.

1. You should inspire from PG2 or PeG Suite
2. Units should be selected by nation (with a dedicated scroll menu per country)
3. Maps existing in game should be available and directly selectable
4. All in all I don't see this thing as user-friendly despite the manual of Kerensky, this tool seems heavy and very complicated (including the manual is vital otherwise...).

But in the future I hope a community could develop a lot of maps directly usable by fans and hosted somewhere.

I like the possibility to import a map from Google earth but I don't know if roads are directly recognized.

RobertCL wrote:Scenario design tool.

1. You should inspire from PG2 or PeG Suite
2. Units should be selected by nation (with a dedicated scroll menu per country)
3. Maps existing in game should be available and directly selectable
4. All in all I don't see this thing as user-friendly despite the manual of Kerensky, this tool seems heavy and very complicated (including the manual is vital otherwise...).

But in the future I hope a community could develop a lot of maps directly usable by fans and hosted somewhere.

I like the possibility to import a map from Google earth but I don't know if roads are directly recognized.

#1. Explain? It was my impression Pg2 editor was quite complex, especially the actual map 'drawing'.
#2. Filter button.
#3. They are, just in a separate directory.
#4. Starcraft 2 Galaxy Editor. lol

Nothing is directly recognized by importing, you have to draw all features on top of your picture. The picture just serves as a quick, easy, and directly embedded reference guide.

I guess, it is a question of habit. Personally, I find PG2 suite very complex and unintuitive. PzC editor is much easier to use.

Hello,

Test based on version 0.999

I never designed maps and I wanted to use the tool in order to see if it was easy for a new comer like me in terms of map design.

I took 8 hours to read the manual and to build-up my 1st map.

Hopefully I saw you re-mail Kerensky on this forum: Uncle_Chandy@yahoo.com
I shall send you what I have done.

The manual sent me wrongly where I did not have to go in fact.
I shall explain.
However the fist manual is a good attempt and give already a lot of information.

1. you must have an undo button, this is mandatory.

2. According to the manual we start first by drawing roads, railroads then rivers (you know the menu with a lot of possibilities). So I was drawing all rivers on my map (4 hours) then the next part according to the manual is to set terrain feautures, including lakes hexes, but if you put lake hexes on the rivers then you previous work becomes useless. In other words the chronology should be inverted: first terrain properties and only then roads, railroads and rivers.

3. Then comes another part: the menu with four colored lines (2 thiner, 2 thicker ones). I thought I was adding roads but I added railways (grey line). Too bad without undo button map map could be thrown away because there is no way back. There is no indication showing that the blue line represents roads. I still don't know what are the two other thicker lines.
So now I wrongly placed grey lines everywhere in my map and there is no way to go backwards.

4. I think the victory conditions are hard to understand as written in the manual.

5. I took a map from Google map and I worked from there.
Google has no legend so I erroneously put hills instead of clear terrain (my fault only). Your tool should allow in one click like in PeG suite to change all mountain hexes into clear hexes (otherwise you need hours to do the job)

6. I also notice that the tool allows to set the position of units but in my case when I tried to face US with an orientation on the right (left side of the map) and Soviets with an orientation on the left (right part of the map), both sides have an orientation on the right.

7. Then you need a handy e-file editor to allow e-file designers to change stats easily and to build their own e-file.

8. You should say in the manual how to load pre-designed maps. In the editor I saw a way to load scenarios but not maps. We must guess a scenario without unit is considered as a map by the tool.

9. "The picture just serves as a quick, easy, and directly embedded reference guide" OK. Please also mention it in the manual when you talk about Pad image in section 4.5.

For the rest despite my issues I love the "G" button (Generate map) but here again undo should exist to allow easy correction if the map designer suddenly discovers he made a mistake.

EDIT: Oh wow, you're the Robert Mary. I know that name. Nice to meet you.



#1

A. Close editor, do not save changes, reopen map is an alternative undo.

#2

No, and no. Lakes do not delete rivers. If you place a lake on a river with left click, you can pick your lake placement back up with right click.
The example in 4.5 draws roads, rivers, and railroads first.
The example at the end actually did it in the reverse order. You can do terrain and terrain features in either order, they aren't mutually exclusive.

#3.

Documentation of what the 4 lines are would be nice, but so far not yet implemented. Refer to #1 for a alternative to 'undo'.

#4.

That's just how they're set up, unfortunately. With great power comes great complexity.

#5.

As written in the editor.

Hold shift and click to fill in an area.

#6.

As written in the editor.

Unit orientation: Affects initial unit facing for all units on one side.

#7.

Might be nice, but already do-able with notepad and excel.

#8.

There is no functionality to only load the terrain and terrain features of a map. Map = Scenario for all intents and purposes currently.

#9.

Manual?

Based on your feedback, I'll make a few changed to the tutorial. This, for example.



Our editor creative is a genius, but unfortunately he's very, very bad at documentation.

Looking at your map, you're making a fairly common mistake, and I see why it took you 8 hours to make. You haven't actually placed any roads, railroads, or rivers on your map at all. Could be a fault of the editor, but it is what it is. The key piece to remember is:

Tiles – Background, Coasts, Overlays…. Ports, Stations.
All of these items allow you to place a specific appearing terrain piece down. This is NOT how you place actual terrain; this only allows you to customize your map’s appearance. For example, under “Overlays” you can find several different looking ‘fortification’ looking tiles which you place over auto generated fortifications you placed with “Terrain”.

#1. Use 1 of the 4 options in 'terrain features' to draw lines all over the map.
#2. Hit 'G'
#3. The editor automatically draws your features for you, but you can overwrite the visual appearance of a hex through the various "Tiles" options.