Slitherine

So the Finns are Elite cavaliers while the rest of the Swedes are Determined Horse? Still waiting for my copies of the rules & army lists but very curious about the Swedes hence the question. Making the Finns diffrent in tactics sounds like a very odd choice as there is no historical evidence for them being diffrent (I've certainly not found any in 15 years of studying the Swedish army) though having them diffrent is a well established wargames myth and one which seems to be hard to break up with.

Is there any allowance for the Swedes using other tactics than closing for salvos & charge? One of the keys to the Swedish success was their ability to adapt the tactics to the circumstances, they knew how to sustain a firefight quite well and the ample regimental artillery gave the brigade commander a clear advantage in firepower compared to enemy formations as the crew of a Swedish regimental cannon were able to fire 3 shots in the time it took musketeers to fire two. That's 75 musket balls for each gun , i.e 225 for a typical 3 gun battery. (Not to mention the ability to use round shot a longer range).

timmy1 wrote:Swiss inperiod are fun.

To run yes, to face not so funny.

DanielS wrote:So the Finns are Elite cavaliers while the rest of the Swedes are Determined Horse? Still waiting for my copies of the rules & army lists but very curious about the Swedes hence the question. Making the Finns diffrent in tactics sounds like a very odd choice as there is no historical evidence for them being diffrent (I've certainly not found any in 15 years of studying the Swedish army) though having them diffrent is a well established wargames myth and one which seems to be hard to break up with.

We like to allow a certain amount of romance in the lists.

However, I have to admit that if you hadn't posted and made me check I'd have said there was a Determined Horse option for them as well. Alas it appears some idiot - i.e. me - accidentally deleted it/forgot to put it in thus leaving a rather embarrassing gap

I wonder if Richard will countenance a major errata item ...

I can't even blame Hammy this time

You can't justigiably blame Hammy, blaming him unjustifiably is still an option.

DanielS wrote:So the Finns are Elite cavaliers while the rest of the Swedes are Determined Horse? Still waiting for my copies of the rules & army lists but very curious about the Swedes hence the question. Making the Finns diffrent in tactics sounds like a very odd choice as there is no historical evidence for them being diffrent (I've certainly not found any in 15 years of studying the Swedish army) though having them diffrent is a well established wargames myth and one which seems to be hard to break up with.

Is there any allowance for the Swedes using other tactics than closing for salvos & charge? One of the keys to the Swedish success was their ability to adapt the tactics to the circumstances, they knew how to sustain a firefight quite well and the ample regimental artillery gave the brigade commander a clear advantage in firepower compared to enemy formations as the crew of a Swedish regimental cannon were able to fire 3 shots in the time it took musketeers to fire two. That's 75 musket balls for each gun , i.e 225 for a typical 3 gun battery. (Not to mention the ability to use round shot a longer range).

The key to happiness is lowering your expectations.

Nik, I think it needs the errata. Not sure anyone will use it but...

Scrumpy wrote:Yuppers, 4 dice at 4s. Trouble is them Swedes will charge you.

Only in there turn so you get your shot at them

nikgaukroger wrote:

DanielS wrote:So the Finns are Elite cavaliers while the rest of the Swedes are Determined Horse? Still waiting for my copies of the rules & army lists but very curious about the Swedes hence the question. Making the Finns diffrent in tactics sounds like a very odd choice as there is no historical evidence for them being diffrent (I've certainly not found any in 15 years of studying the Swedish army) though having them diffrent is a well established wargames myth and one which seems to be hard to break up with.

I wonder if Richard will countenance a major errata item ...

Hardly a major errata item, surely just a matter of adding Finnish to the main Swedish etc cavalry line? Which then gives them both options.

Of course more pragmatic folk could simply field them from that line right now and call them Finnish.

rbodleyscott wrote:

nikgaukroger wrote:

DanielS wrote:So the Finns are Elite cavaliers while the rest of the Swedes are Determined Horse? Still waiting for my copies of the rules & army lists but very curious about the Swedes hence the question. Making the Finns diffrent in tactics sounds like a very odd choice as there is no historical evidence for them being diffrent (I've certainly not found any in 15 years of studying the Swedish army) though having them diffrent is a well established wargames myth and one which seems to be hard to break up with.

I wonder if Richard will countenance a major errata item ...

Hardly a major errata item, surely just a matter of adding Finnish to the main Swedish etc cavalry line? Which then gives them both options.

However, they wouldn't then get the Elite option.

nikgaukroger wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote:

nikgaukroger wrote: I wonder if Richard will countenance a major errata item ...

Hardly a major errata item, surely just a matter of adding Finnish to the main Swedish etc cavalry line? Which then gives them both options.

However, they wouldn't then get the Elite option.

You will have to ask Daniel whether the "Elite" status is also part of the myth.

rbodleyscott wrote:

nikgaukroger wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote: Hardly a major errata item, surely just a matter of adding Finnish to the main Swedish etc cavalry line? Which then gives them both options.

However, they wouldn't then get the Elite option.

You will have to ask Daniel whether the "Elite" status is also part of the myth.

Well we wrote this about them in WoR:

" They were the best of Gustavus’ cavalry and at Lützen he turned to them to attack the Imperial cuirassiers who were the greatest threat – “charge me those blacke fellows soundly: for they are the men who will undo us”. "

Given what happened later that was truly prophetic for Gustavus himself

Well the "Elite" status is part myth, the Finns were just like other Swedish cavalry of the period, some good, others not so good and a select few exceptional. There is certainly no justification for some sort of 'universal' upgrade to 'Elite' simply because a unit was med up of Finns. Both in Livonia and Prussia Finnish cavalry collapsed in panick and rout on several occassions, at Treiden the mere apperance of Lithuanian reinforcements led to a large scale collapse of morale despite the companies in question just having ridden down Lithuanian hussars in a head on charge. At Honigfelde one of the two Finnish squadrons was easily routed and almost surrendered while Ekholt's men fought staunchly despite sever losses, but then their 2nd in command was Torsten Stålhandske.

The main asset was not some national superiority due to being Finns, rather it was an exceptional regimental commander in the shape of Torsten Stålhandske, there were native Swedish cavalry every bit as good as Stålhandske's Finns, some probably a bit better in my highly biased opinion.
The main example were the Västgöta regiment commanded by the Soop brothers which racked up an impressive record of battlefield feats, at Dirschau the Vastgota and Erik Soop saved the day by counter-charging when the entire Swedish right wign was in rout. At Burgstall a single company led by Harald Stake broke Bernstein's regiment of cuirassiers after Stake shot down Bernstein in single combat, at Breitenfeld the Vastgota took part in repulsing Pappenheims furious charges, then the Kign moved them to left wing to deliver the coup de grace to the hard fighting Catholic Foot. At Lützen they deployed next to the vaunted Finns and played an essential part in the defeat of Pappenheim.
The difference is that the Vastgota never got the same kind of press as the Finns did, of course I'm rather biased in favour of the Vastgota because it is the unit in which my ancestors served and mostly died. (It's sobering to see how man fathers, sons and brothers rode away from their small Yeoman farms in Vastergotland to find foreign graves in the soil of Livonia, Poland, Germany and Denmark.)

The question is how 'Elite' is defined in FoG-R? IIRC it was quite rare in FOG-Ancients? Based on the description in FOG-A the only units in the 'early' Swedish army to qualify for that rating would be the Court regiment (aka Yellow) and the Blue Regiment, any regiments who have hussars charge straight through their ranks only to pick them selves up fromt eh groud, reform and continue firing is exceptional in my book and their later performance certainly was along the same lines. The Swedish superiority in the TYW rested more on having lot's 'superior' troops, the best and largest artillery train in the world and being lucky enough to have exceptionall army commanders while their enemies had to settle for average or worse post-1635.

DanielS wrote:Well the "Elite" status is part myth, the Finns were just like other Swedish cavalry of the period, some good, others not so good and a select few exceptional. There is certainly no justification for some sort of 'universal' upgrade to 'Elite' simply because a unit was med up of Finns. Both in Livonia and Prussia Finnish cavalry collapsed in panick and rout on several occassions, at Treiden the mere apperance of Lithuanian reinforcements led to a large scale collapse of morale despite the companies in question just having ridden down Lithuanian hussars in a head on charge. At Honigfelde one of the two Finnish squadrons was easily routed and almost surrendered while Ekholt's men fought staunchly despite sever losses, but then their 2nd in command was Torsten Stålhandske.

The main asset was not some national superiority due to being Finns, rather it was an exceptional regimental commander in the shape of Torsten Stålhandske, there were native Swedish cavalry every bit as good as Stålhandske's Finns, some probably a bit better in my highly biased opinion.
The main example were the Västgöta regiment commanded by the Soop brothers which racked up an impressive record of battlefield feats, at Dirschau the Vastgota and Erik Soop saved the day by counter-charging when the entire Swedish right wign was in rout. At Burgstall a single company led by Harald Stake broke Bernstein's regiment of cuirassiers after Stake shot down Bernstein in single combat, at Breitenfeld the Vastgota took part in repulsing Pappenheims furious charges, then the Kign moved them to left wing to deliver the coup de grace to the hard fighting Catholic Foot. At Lützen they deployed next to the vaunted Finns and played an essential part in the defeat of Pappenheim.
The difference is that the Vastgota never got the same kind of press as the Finns did, of course I'm rather biased in favour of the Vastgota because it is the unit in which my ancestors served and mostly died. (It's sobering to see how man fathers, sons and brothers rode away from their small Yeoman farms in Vastergotland to find foreign graves in the soil of Livonia, Poland, Germany and Denmark.)

The question is how 'Elite' is defined in FoG-R? IIRC it was quite rare in FOG-Ancients? Based on the description in FOG-A the only units in the 'early' Swedish army to qualify for that rating would be the Court regiment (aka Yellow) and the Blue Regiment, any regiments who have hussars charge straight through their ranks only to pick them selves up fromt eh groud, reform and continue firing is exceptional in my book and their later performance certainly was along the same lines. The Swedish superiority in the TYW rested more on having lot's 'superior' troops, the best and largest artillery train in the world and being lucky enough to have exceptionall army commanders while their enemies had to settle for average or worse post-1635.

In which case I would suggest that the only erratum required is to add Finns to the main cavalry line and leave the present Finn lines for the use of those romantics who prefer the myth.

nikgaukroger wrote:

DanielS wrote:So the Finns are Elite cavaliers while the rest of the Swedes are Determined Horse? Still waiting for my copies of the rules & army lists but very curious about the Swedes hence the question. Making the Finns diffrent in tactics sounds like a very odd choice as there is no historical evidence for them being diffrent (I've certainly not found any in 15 years of studying the Swedish army) though having them diffrent is a well established wargames myth and one which seems to be hard to break up with.

We like to allow a certain amount of romance in the lists.

However, I have to admit that if you hadn't posted and made me check I'd have said there was a Determined Horse option for them as well. Alas it appears some idiot - i.e. me - accidentally deleted it/forgot to put it in thus leaving a rather embarrassing gap

I wonder if Richard will countenance a major errata item ...

I can't even blame Hammy this time

That is certainly a valid choice though one that will disapoint the odd harcore historian/wargamer such as my self For me it's a fine line between historical inspired romance to give an army more "colour" and turning a blind eye towards fact in favour of old & new historical myth. The choice regarding the Finns is a good example of the first, examples of the second would be those that still insists that the Catholics &Spaniards only used Tercios that were huge lumbering and inefficient monstrosities.

rbodleyscott wrote: In which case I would suggest that the only erratum required is to add Finns to the main cavalry line and leave the present Finn lines for the use of those romantics who prefer the myth.

Thanks to shipping company dropping the ball I've yet to recieve the Wars of Religion book so I've not seen the complete list but my main concern apart from the historical accuracy has been that the only choice would be not to field the Finns at all which in turn would restrict the number of cavalry available. (In DBR the Finns were a separate troop type IIRC so it was use them or loose them).

DanielS wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote: In which case I would suggest that the only erratum required is to add Finns to the main cavalry line and leave the present Finn lines for the use of those romantics who prefer the myth.

Thanks to shipping company dropping the ball I've yet to recieve the Wars of Religion book so I've not seen the complete list but my main concern apart from the historical accuracy has been that the only choice would be not to field the Finns at all which in turn would restrict the number of cavalry available. (In DBR the Finns were a separate troop type IIRC so it was use them or loose them).

The list allows up to 24 bases of the normal cavalry, up to 16 kabynrittare, 0-4 cuirassiers as well as 0-4 romantic Finns. I can't imagine anyone needing or wanting more in the size of games the lists are intended for.

I am looking forward to create a Czech protestant states. I don't have my book yet so I hope there is a suitable list.

Jiron wrote:I am looking forward to create a Czech protestant states. I don't have my book yet so I hope there is a suitable list.

I would think that would be the Hungarian Translvanian army of Bethlen Gabor is that who your thinking of? or it could be the early german protestant army.

david53 wrote:

Jiron wrote:I am looking forward to create a Czech protestant states. I don't have my book yet so I hope there is a suitable list.

I would think that would be the Hungarian Translvanian army of Bethlen Gabor is that who your thinking of? or it could be the early german protestant army.

I believe early german protestant army will do. I meant that party defeated at the battle of white mountain (1620).

Jiron

You are correct, Early German Protestant. That is the one you want. Interesting to see how it plays as I can't recall seeing one.