Slitherine

I'm glad you like it A lot of the detailed stuff will be invisible to the players once we get started, but I think it's important that you are all aware of what goes on under the hood. Hopefully I'll have time to get the settlements, facilities and naval stuff added tomorrow. The Fate cards and Convocation cards are coming along nicely, so I should be able to get them listed soon.

If you have any queries or suggestions about the rules so far please let me know. I'm pretty sure that a lot of the income and expense values will change once we kick off the live game - the ones so far are best guesses from me.

Cheers,

Keyth

Checked out install # 2, looks great.
Questions:

Will all factions be able to see the other armies etc "moving" across the map? Is it "wego" ? Will we as players desginate which hexes an army moves? For example it appears an army can move max 8 hexes if it spends the supplies, do we need to plot the hex x/y coordinates of the path?
Cheers!

TheGrayMouser wrote:Checked out install # 2, looks great.
Questions:

Will all factions be able to see the other armies etc "moving" across the map? Is it "wego" ? Will we as players desginate which hexes an army moves? For example it appears an army can move max 8 hexes if it spends the supplies, do we need to plot the hex x/y coordinates of the path?
Cheers!

Good questions. You may be able to see other armies, depending on a number of factors. For instance there may be times when a forced march or sneak attack takes you by surprise. It is 'wego'. I am working on the 'strategic map' at the moment, the only real difference is that hexes are numbered A1, A2 etc. Using these, at the start of each season you can send me your armies route. For example:

"Army of the North, move B3,B4,B5,C5 and raid. Attack any enemy encountered en route"

I will then inform the relevant parties if any patrols have been triggered or collisions have occurred.

Sounds good, will have a nice operational aspect to it all, Cheers!

http://cid-404614788b316f26.skydrive.li ... 0Isles.doc

A fair bit more added - pitched battles, settlements, facilities, fleets, sea battles, etc. Politics, voting and fate cards to follow, most likely tomorrow.

Cheers,

Keyth

http://cid-404614788b316f26.skydrive.li ... 0Isles.doc

Added politics, spying and fate. Only trade missions and the map with hex numbers left to do.

Hi Keyth

Just been reading the latest high quality update.
I would like to make a suggestion for the permanent loss table.
Might it be helpful to link permanent loss to battle performance

e.g.
(Broken Points/Break level x 50) + Modifier = % Permanent loss

Modifiers
Result
Victory - Enemy Territory -5% Own Territory -10%
Draw - Enemy Territory +5% Own Territory -5%
Loss - Enemy Territory +15% Own Territory +5%

For instance I have just played a campaign game against Strebe and results were
Me 500 points 32/33
Strebe 600 points 47/45
A win for me in enemy territory

This would mean
[(32/33) x 50] – 5 (victory enemy territory) = 43%
For the 500 point army a 215 point loss.

[(47/45) x 50] + 5 (victory enemy territory) = 57%
For the 600 point army a 342 point loss.

I think this formula would always give permanent loss to an army that is beaten in its own territory of 55% - 65% and in enemy territory 65% - 75%. As your table shows you intended.

Draw and winning armies would be much more variable and would reward heroic defence. There is an incentive to do as much damage as possible.

I hope you don’t mind the suggestion but it seems to fit the spirit of the rest of your tremendous rules.

I like that a lot. Rather than dealing with simple casualty numbers, the degree of victory of loss is accounted for. I shall update the document accordingly and get it re-uploaded.

I have no issue at all with suggestions like this - I have taken just one approach to a set of rules and firmly believe that they become better through collaboration.

Thanks!

I'm wondering if winner's losses are maybe not a bit high, I'd have thought 30% maximum for winners would 'feel' right. Maybe halve the permanent loss for winners (before modifiers for territory)? But of course that might affect play balance too much.

I'll run some numbers over the weekend and post the results for discussion. I guess we need to agree upon what were the 'usual' fatalities vs. wounded/routed/captured and work from there.

I guess the overall feel and playability is the important thing, however my understanding is that all the way up to the horse and musket period, casualties for the defeated were heavy.... It was rare that a defeated army could rally at later point and even consider forming up for another battle...

I believe historical stats indicate losses for the victor would have been in the 10-20%range, the loser more like 30-60%. The survivors likly, except for cavalry and any nobilty who were likly mounted as well, would have dispersed and never reformed, at least in the short term. Wandering soldiers after a defeat tended to be hunted down by the victors in the days following the battle or knocked off by annoyed peasants, regardless if in friendly territory or not.

Different era, but I was lucky enough to get to the battlefield at Isandlwana (Zulu War). There are cairns where groups of British bodies were found, and once the 'standing troops' were overwhelmed, it was pretty much a slaughter.

Paisley wrote:I'm wondering if winner's losses are maybe not a bit high, I'd have thought 30% maximum for winners would 'feel' right. Maybe halve the permanent loss for winners (before modifiers for territory)? But of course that might affect play balance too much.

[quote='GrayMouser]I guess the overall feel and playability is the important thing, however my understanding is that all the way up to the horse and musket period, casualties for the defeated were heavy.... It was rare that a defeated army could rally at later point and even consider forming up for another battle...

I believe historical stats indicate losses for the victor would have been in the 10-20%range, the loser more like 30-60%. The survivors likly, except for cavalry and any nobilty who were likly mounted as well, would have dispersed and never reformed, at least in the short term. Wandering soldiers after a defeat tended to be hunted down by the victors in the days following the battle or knocked off by annoyed peasants, regardless if in friendly territory or not[/quote]


I agree with you both so sorry folks I didn't explain well enough.
That 43% for the victors only reflected the fact the battle was so close.

So change this

Me 500 points 32/33
Strebe 600 points 47/45
A win for me in enemy territory

This would mean
[(32/33) x 50] – 5 (victory enemy territory) = 43%
For the 500 point army a 215 point loss.

[(47/45) x 50] + 5 (victory enemy territory) = 57%
For the 600 point army a 342 point loss.

to this

Me 500 points 22/33
Strebe 600 points 47/45
A win for me in enemy territory

This would mean
[(20/33) x 50] – 5 (victory enemy territory) = 25%
For the 500 point army a 125 point loss.

[(47/45) x 50] + 5 (victory enemy territory) = 57%
For the 600 point army a 342 point loss.

These values for a moderate victory are in/close to the suggested values. An absolutely overwhelming victory could mean no loss to the victor.

My point was that this way you can have tactical victories but strategic defeats.
If the concensus is percentages are too high or too low we can change the fixed value modifiers and/or the 50% multiplier.

Those win/lose #'s seem pretty good Triarus.

Just preordered SOA (almost forgot, April pretty much came and went!)

Dont know if this is feasable or desirable but the rules have quite a few things that can be improved by new "tech", like spying , shipping sieges etc Wondering if there could be a gundpowder tech that could be implemented. The idea would be no handgunners or cannon can be utilized in a battle unless one has the means to build via having the tech to do so. Bear in mind I am not beta testing SOA so i do not know if certain gunpowder type units are required picks in any, some or all lists.... If so would make the whole idea moot...

Some lists get handgunners and light/heavy artillery. TBH, they're not that great anyhow

Cheers!

keyth wrote:Some lists get handgunners and light/heavy artillery. TBH, they're not that great anyhow

Cheers!

They only become effective in the Rennaissance which is covered by the forthcoming FoG-R rules (TT announced, presumably PC in the long run if the TT rules do well enough).

Chris

Yeah I guess the end time line for SOA is just around when the arquebus made its entrance on the battle field...
I really have a hard time envisioning how handgunners were effective at all in a field battle, having basically a tube lashed to a stick, tucked under one arm and trying to apply a buring match.... doesnt really seem likly as a skirmishing type weapon.... but then again, many arsenals account for large #'s of these weapons mid 15th century, and the Burgundians under Charles had quite a few as well. I guess in field they were likly used in static field works.

TheGrayMouser wrote:Yeah I guess the end time line for SOA is just around when the arquebus made its entrance on the battle field...
I really have a hard time envisioning how handgunners were effective at all in a field battle, having basically a tube lashed to a stick, tucked under one arm and trying to apply a buring match.... doesnt really seem likly as a skirmishing type weapon.... but then again, many arsenals account for large #'s of these weapons mid 15th century, and the Burgundians under Charles had quite a few as well. I guess in field they were likly used in static field works.

If you use hand gunners in SoA, you'll probably find they aren't terribly effective. They are like javelins that cause a -1 on a cohesion test if they get two hits. They are a little better in FoG TT since you can combine them with other shooting to get enough hits to cause the cohesion test. So basically, as far as FoG TT and PC go, they make scary amounts of noise and smoke but don't do much more than that. The 1500 A.D. end date for FoG is roughly about the time that massed arquebuses and other handguns start to do more than just being scary.

Chris

Well it's out Have a look around and let me know (when you've had a chance to decide) which army you would like to use.