Slitherine

gozerius wrote:I win by playing people who haven't figured out what they are doing with their army. I fought a Sarmatian army in steppe and crushed him. The key was to present a big, fat, juicy block of 4 BGs of 8 MF, HW screened by LF jav/LSp, with rear support provided by the cav. The flanks were covered by the rest of the LF and LH.

Sounds like a terrific battle! Thanks for that. Why use LF with javelins when you can use Slingers (cheaper and more effective against cavalry) or bowmen (more effective)? Why use HW instead of Offensive Spear if you are facing only cavalry? It sounds like you were very lucky with your terrain considering you were fighting in steppe! What is lining up a bunch of LF with Javelins in front of your main line supposed to do if you are facing an army of lancer cavalry in the open?

CW

The skirmishers skirmish. They can draw the enemy line out of formation so that they hit in an uncoordinated fashion. As happened in my fight. Here are some pics and narrative for this fight. It would have been helpful to have had OSp here, but as Rumsfeld once said: "You don't fight with the army you wish you had. You fight with the army you have."

http://s487.photobucket.com/albums/rr23 ... armatians/

The pics are sufficiently blurry that you can't tell that my troops were painted by my 10 year old son.

The Morally Bankrupt Thracian Swarm (with 20 units) won at Warfare - it was the only Thracian army. Congratulations!

The pictures of the battle against the Sarmatians are quite interesteing. For instance, your Lf were in one rank, in a huge long line. It would only take one unit to make them go away but I suppose the idea is that, if three cavarly battlegroups charge LF and the LF evade, the chances are that one cavalry unit will roll a normal VMD, one will roll down, and one will roll up. You would have to be very careful about your distance from the supporting troops (to avoid being caught while evading) but that means two out of three units hit the MF, hopefully with overlaps on each side. Then the lancers have ++ against you but if you survive the first round you will be equal or have the advantage.

Another interesting picture showed the LF bow being caught runnin away while being charged in uneven terrain by LH. I think your opponent was inexperienced - the LF would have an even chance of beating the LH if they stood to receive the charge, and would not need to pass a CMT to stand to receive it. Pity the bowmen don't get to support shoot otherwise they might win the first round of combat.

CW

vakarr wrote:The Morally Bankrupt Thracian Swarm (with 20 units) won at Warfare - it was the only Thracian army. Congratulations!CW

Does anyone know if this version of the Thracian Swarm used its Romanized infantry as heavies or mediums?

Peter C

pcelella wrote:

vakarr wrote:The Morally Bankrupt Thracian Swarm (with 20 units) won at Warfare - it was the only Thracian army. Congratulations!CW

Does anyone know if this version of the Thracian Swarm used its Romanized infantry as heavies or mediums?

Peter C

Mediums

gozerius wrote:I win by playing people who haven't figured out what they are doing with their army.

So you play for reigate then?

I wonder how you succeed in the centre as well as on the flanks without using any HF and with minimal cavalry?

I took a look at the lancer terror issue last night with three lancer units vs 3 LF and 2 MF units and found some interesting results. For the most part, putting a double rank of shooters in front of your main MF line will help them to hold off the lancers. If you put a gap of slightly less than 3 MP between the shooters and the MF then they will always be able to evade the lancers. I found three outcomes likely - a) the shooting and evading has no effect on the lancers and at least one lancer unit gets through, rolls well, and routs the MF (if the MF are armed with HW the lancers get ++ in the open). b) the shooters do well and the lancers VMD is short, so they never get to hit the MF and get shot up or c) one unit of lancers doesn't make it to contact (it gets disrupted from shooting then fails its CMT to charge, then shot up) while the other two make it but not togethe and are overlapped and beaten off. The points work in the Thracian favour at 24 vs 32 points per base frontage (assuming no general or third Thracian line of MF, which would help). I think this tactic would work just as well against cataphracts or knights as they have a shorter move distance and thus would be more broken up by the VMD.

I suppose this wouldn't work against a HF army because HF don't have to charge skirmishers? Do you have any other useful tactics that would enable morally sound Thracians to survive in the centre of the table?

Another interesting picture showed the LF bow being caught runnin away while being charged in uneven terrain by LH. I think your opponent was inexperienced - the LF would have an even chance of beating the LH if they stood to receive the charge, and would not need to pass a CMT to stand to receive it. Pity the bowmen don't get to support shoot otherwise they might win the first round of combat.

LH roll 2 dice vs 1 dice vs LF and aren't bothered by uneven terrain.

vakarr wrote:I wonder how you succeed in the centre as well as on the flanks without using any HF and with minimal cavalry?

Try to get a big steep hill in the center of the board?

I don't always succeed, but when I win I like to remind my opponent that he just got beat by a bunch of unwashed barbarians, and when I lose I just say, "Well, they're just a bunch of unwashed barbarians. What did you expect?"
I beat Romans by out-massing them. and picking off their support troops.

gozerius wrote: LH roll 2 dice vs 1 dice vs LF and aren't bothered by uneven terrain.

Careful - LH are bothered in the sense that cavalry bonuses vs LF only apply in open terrain. Thus they only fight at + if armed with JLS against bow-armed LF in the impact phase and are equal in the melee phase. LH vs LH or LF get the same number of dice I thought.

I now realise the LF tactic can be used to give the Thracian Cav an advantage against lancers, too, although that is not so points- effective. I've got to test it out against Cataphracts and Knights but I assume it would be just as effective. I've just about finished a Slingshot article about it - can I send it to you?

I beat Romans by similar tactics to yours - stretching out the line, using the Light horse to charge through the gaps that inevitably appear and hit them in the rear after shooting them up in front. It helps when you have a Roman opponent who thinks that big Roman units are a good idea - then has to stretch them out in one rank.

vakarr wrote: I suppose this wouldn't work against a HF army because HF don't have to charge skirmishers?

Shock HF have to test not to charge LF.

vakarr wrote:

gozerius wrote: LH roll 2 dice vs 1 dice vs LF and aren't bothered by uneven terrain.

Careful - LH are bothered in the sense that cavalry bonuses vs LF only apply in open terrain. Thus they only fight at + if armed with JLS against bow-armed LF in the impact phase and are equal in the melee phase. LH vs LH or LF get the same number of dice I thought.

LF lose 1 dice per 2 against LH.

Thanks, Nik.
Also, always choose hilly if you win terrain and make the big brush your compulsary. Then put down as much broken ground as possible (doesn't affect your troops except the cav), with a plantation covered gentle hill (for an ambush opportunity). This advice applies to any army that relies on MF with LH.

gozerius wrote:Thanks, Nik.
Also, always choose hilly if you win terrain and make the big brush your compulsary. Then put down as much broken ground as possible (doesn't affect your troops except the cav), with a plantation covered gentle hill (for an ambush opportunity). This advice applies to any army that relies on MF with LH.

This is great, you'll have me believing in the power of the pure (morally rich) Thracians yet! Have you got any more hints at how to make the pure ones more successful?

Unfortunately I have found that the LF line in front of the MF line is not as powerful as I originally thought - I found a FoG FaQ that says that if all troops in your path do not evade you don't have to roll a VMD. This means that you have to have your LF line well forward if you are to toally break up the line of shock troops - probably meaning that the LF will be caught in the rear while evading. Anyway, I have sent the article off to Slingshot - I think it would work for all shock troops except knights, who can expand to nullify the overlap advantage.

Chris

I never said it was powerful. It just provides the enemy enough distraction that they sometimes do something rash. And it is based on historical descriptions.

(apologies for cross-posting) Hi, I have published a set of Thracian campaign rules for FoG called "Clash of Iron, Flash of Bronze" in the latest Slingshot (Slingshot 267). It allows for up to 28 player and non-player countries. It starts in 350 BC and (as well as 15 Thracian tribes) includes all the usual suspects from the Romans to the Persians (it is slightly anacronistic). If you would like an electronic copy of the rules I would be happy to supply them. A high resolution copy of the map is available from the Society of Ancients web site.

I would also like to know if anybody might be interested in helping me develop a database to run the campaign.

Cheers,

Chris Webber