Slitherine

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:20 pm**

Immaterial to the situation as that is covered in the JAP:

But to answer your question, following the play sequence during the JAP(page 168)

1 remove scythed Chariots
2 make break offs
3 CMT to Stop pursuing or looting
4 Move commanders
5 bolster/rally
6 move routers/pursuers-remove bases if in contact-roll for commanders-roll for seeing commanders lost
7 remove BGs autobroke or only one stand

Quite normal. Now, we have to reference page 50 which tells us what happens to the commander:

"....If a BGs move would take it into contact or within shooting range of an enemy commander who is not with a BG, he must immediately move (in any phase or turn) to join a friendly BG, if there is one within his normal move distance. If not, de does not move and is immediately lost....

that situation has been dealt with in a consise neat manner.

And is why the question still remains. The above all happens in the JAP. However, as I have shown, not all BGs are removed during the JAP and not only due to being reduced to one base nor autobroken.

Have a go again please.

I think the question remains. At what point does a BG -that is not autobroken nor reduced to one base - and fails to completely clear all friends during bursting through (page 48-49) get removed from the table? If immediately, then what would happen to a commander that is with it.

I've shown per the RAW that a leader can only move during the owning players movement phase, or during either players JAP, or in the example above (which is covered during the JAP) - pages 49-50. Additionally, I shown that BGs are removed only during the JAP when they are autobroken or reduced to one base - page 109.

Perhaps a once in a lifetime effect, but I've only been playing for a year and have had the situation happen 2x.

Madcam

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:22 pm**

wow, the system added bold font in places not intended at all.....

sorry 'bout that. Not trying to shout or be bold. Merely attempting to add certain emphasis...

Madcam.

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:24 pm**

madcam2us wrote:Immaterial to the situation as that is covered in the JAP:

But to answer your question, following the play sequence during the JAP(page 168)

1 remove scythed Chariots
2 make break offs
3 CMT to Stop pursuing or looting
4 Move commanders
5 bolster/rally
6 move routers/pursuers-remove bases if in contact-roll for commanders-roll for seeing commanders lost
7 remove BGs autobroke or only one stand

Quite normal. Now, we have to reference page 50 which tells us what happens to the commander:

"....If a BGs move would take it into contact or within shooting range of an enemy commander who is not with a BG, he must immediately move (in any phase or turn) to join a friendly BG, if there is one within his normal move distance. If not, de does not move and is immediately lost....

that situation has been dealt with in a consise neat manner.

And is why the question still remains. The above all happens in the JAP. However, as I have shown, not all BGs are removed during the JAP and not only due to being reduced to one base nor autobroken.

Have a go again please.

I think the question remains. At what point does a BG -that is not autobroken nor reduced to one base - and fails to completely clear all friends during bursting through (page 48-49) get removed from the table? If immediately, then what would happen to a commander that is with it.

I've shown per the RAW that a leader can only move during the owning players movement phase, or during either players JAP, or in the example above (which is covered during the JAP) - pages 49-50. Additionally, I shown that BGs are removed only during the JAP when they are autobroken or reduced to one base - page 109.

Perhaps a once in a lifetime effect, but I've only been playing for a year and have had the situation happen 2x.

Madcam.

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:26 pm**

thanks phil

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:43 pm**

It seems that the argument being used is that a BG that is removed because it can't rout is somehow different to a BG being removed because the last base is destoryed.

The way I play BGs that have a commander but are totally destroyed by pursuers is that the pursuers get one roll on a 10 to kill the commander and if they don't then the the commander just stands there on his own till he gets the chance to move or until he is shot at or the enemy BG move over him.

A BG that is removed from the table because it can't evade or rout is IMO much the same as a BG that is destroyed in detail. I don't see that the commander is more likely (actually 100% likely) to die in this situation.

The more I read this thread and the more I try to explain things the more my head hurts.

What I think should happen and what is in the rules are not the same things.

I think that routers should stop in front of the troops they can't burst through, get hit and then get removed. Sadly that is definitely not what the rules say. They instead say that routers that can't burst through are removed.

Now there is a section that says that a commander with a BG that leaves the table is lost but a BG that has been removed is not the same as one that leaves the table as there is a clear definition of leaves the table and it is IMO intended to mean leaving the edge.

The bursting through rules about evaders not clearing friends clearly state that the BG is destroyed but the leaves the table rules say that evaders only count for 1 AP.

The lonng and short of it is that if I had to umpire this situation as I now think about the rules I would rule that the commander gets away. I can't come up with a 'proof' or the ruling, that is just what I feel.

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:50 pm**

madcam2us wrote:wow, the system added bold font in places not intended at all.....

sorry 'bout that. Not trying to shout or be bold. Merely attempting to add certain emphasis...

Madcam.

I believe that I have addressed the issue. It is nice to have a chance to use my moderator powers for good!

Marc

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:01 pm**

babyshark wrote: I believe that I have addressed the issue. It is nice to have a chance to use my moderator powers for good!

Marc

But now you have made me look like the silly one

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:15 pm**

Hi Hammy,

Yep, defintely something that isn't directly addressed. I really don't have an issue on how you'd want the situation to covered.

But feel the manner in which you'd rule as umpire (which does carry some weight) is incorrect and overly kind to the player losing the BG.

Remember, that BG is not just removed. It is "destroyed" and removed. During tournaments it counts as 2 AP not 1 (page 37)-

Being destroyed, to me means wiped out and while the table top can't represent what would happen or how that would look, I envision it as since they can't flee far enough to avoid the killing blow (not able to pass thru all friends) they get trapped in place and suffer their fate.

which sounds as how you'd LIKE to play it.

In that case, I'd say the commander gets caught up in the chase and automatically ridden down. In the confusion, no other troops are aware of his loss (since page 49 explicitly tells us no cohesion test is required)

Madcam.

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:26 pm**

madcam2us wrote:Immaterial to the situation as that is covered in the JAP:

Madcam

Actually, Hammy's question is material because it is one of the only other rarities in which a general's BG is destroyed without leaving the edge of the table in a phase other than the JAP. Ultimately the question stems from the silence in the rules as to how to treat a general whose BG is destroyed on table in a phase other than the JAP.

Consider a BG of Elephants with a general attached. The enemy charges, breaks them in impact without the general fighting. Elephants also fail their death roll. Scrub one Elephant. The remaining Elephant (and general) immediately rout and the enemy catches them to contact. Scrub remaining Elephant. The enemy does not roll a 10+ to kill the general.

Now you have a lonely, frightened general, and no JAP or friendly movement phase in sight.

Scott emphatically asserts that the general is bound to his BG unless and until he leaves it (i.e., in the movement phase or the JAP), but the rules do not say this. Others contend that the general remains alive unless and until an enemy moves to contact or shooting range and he cannot immediately escape to another BG. The rules do not say this either.

At bottom, the rules are silent on this rare situation. The rules do not say he lives, nor do they say he dies. I submit that he stays on the table unless the rules explicitly declare him dead.

Spike

Pro-Lifer (for little lead generals at least)

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:34 pm**

Hey Spike,

(Are you trying to make ATC this year?)

You need to read a bit more closer....All that you've written in your El BGs example is covered in the JAP. I suggest you take out the turn sequence and have it handy. We've photo copied it and blown in up for private use.

You also need to re-read pages 49-50 on movement of commanders as what you've written about their movement is also incorrect...

Basically, all that you've written about the subject is rubbish. But it was nice to have a chance to say hello.

Madcam.

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:40 pm**

This could happen in the impact phase

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:48 pm**

And indeed in my case that is when it did happen...

However, spike's question is directly answered by following the Turn Sequence.

Even when a BG is reduced to a singel base (Spikes example) it is NOT removed till the JAP... Which at that time the Commander then is ALLOWED to move.

All of this is NOT pertinent to the question of what happens when an EVADING/Routing BG is unable to complete its bursting thru friends per pages 48-49 and it has a commander with it.

The BG is DESTROYED and removed. But when???

I think immediately (otherwise how is it placed on the table top until the JAP-where is it placed??).. If so, then any Commander with it would also have to be removed since they can't move until their movement turn or the JAP.

Madcam.

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:58 pm**

But Spikes BG could be broken in the impact, persued in the impact and therefore removed in the impact phase. But it is not removed due to being unable to continue its rout, it is removed 'cos all its bases are gone. But not in the JAP.

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:07 pm**

spikemesq wrote:
madcam2us wrote:Immaterial to the situation as that is covered in the JAP:
Madcam
Actually, Hammy's question is material because it is one of the only other rarities in which a general's BG is destroyed without leaving the edge of the table in a phase other than the JAP. Ultimately the question stems from the silence in the rules as to how to treat a general whose BG is destroyed on table in a phase other than the JAP.

Consider a BG of Elephants with a general attached. The enemy charges, breaks them in impact without the general fighting. Elephants also fail their death roll. Scrub one Elephant. The remaining Elephant (and general) immediately rout and the enemy catches them to contact. Scrub remaining Elephant. The enemy does not roll a 10+ to kill the general.

My point exactly. A BG of 4 superior troops that auto breaks and is caught by pursuers thus killing the last base and essentially removing the BG. All that happens is that the pursuers get to roll a 10 to kill the commander but at the end of that the commander is up close and personal with the pursuers.

At this point there is no requirement for the commander to move. He has not been contacted in the movement phase nor shot ast so in the next JAP he gets to move away.

This is IMO similar to the issue being discussed, hence my mention of it.

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:10 pm**

Not following you phil,

after taking death roll, one could have two stands of Elephants lost. And as such, the commander would be alone and need to follow the rules as covered under page 49-50.

But if they are broken in the impact phase and lose one stand, the BG still has to flee. If they are contacted, yes they lose another stand (and so are gone "removed" from the table.) And the Commander is rolled for as normal. This is covered already.

Of course the BG is not picked up in the JAP as there is no stands left.

So I again fail to see how this is material.

Madcam.

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:20 pm**

My point exactly. A BG of 4 superior troops that auto breaks and is caught by pursuers thus killing the last base and essentially removing the BG. All that happens is that the pursuers get to roll a 10 to kill the commander but at the end of that the commander is up close and personal with the pursuers.

At this point there is no requirement for the commander to move. He has not been contacted in the movement phase nor shot ast so in the next JAP he gets to move away.

This is IMO similar to the issue being discussed, hence my mention of it.

Actually there is a requirement for the commander to move - Impact phase is over the BG has no stands left since the last one was picked up in the pursuit the commander is alone.

This keys Page 49 - 50:

"if a BG's move would take it into contact or within shooting range of an enemy commander who is not with a BG, he must immediately move (in any phase or turn) to join a friendly BG,.... etc etc..."

the enemy BG doesn't have to move/be able to move, it just has to be with range of the move or shooting range to force the commander to join or die. Its the IF that matters.

Handled IMO.

Madcam

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:43 pm**

madcam2us wrote: ..
This keys Page 49 - 50:

"if a BG's move would take it into contact or within shooting range of an enemy commander who is not with a BG, he must immediately move (in any phase or turn) to join a friendly BG,.... etc etc..."

the enemy BG doesn't have to move/be able to move, it just has to be with range of the move or shooting range to force the commander to join or die. Its the IF that matters.

Handled IMO.

Madcam

I read the rule as saying that the commander has to move at the point that an enemy BG is moving and would satisfy either the would contact or would be within shooting range. If a BG is already within shooting range I would expect the commander would be forced to move at the first point in the turn sequence where that the BG could move or could shoot.

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:16 pm**

madcam2us wrote: Actually there is a requirement for the commander to move - Impact phase is over the BG has no stands left since the last one was picked up in the pursuit the commander is alone.

This keys Page 49 - 50:

"if a BG's move would take it into contact or within shooting range of an enemy commander who is not with a BG, he must immediately move (in any phase or turn) to join a friendly BG,.... etc etc..."

the enemy BG doesn't have to move/be able to move, it just has to be with range of the move or shooting range to force the commander to join or die. Its the IF that matters.

Handled IMO.

Madcam

No. In the example, the general remains alone in the enemy impact phase (because both Elephants were destroyed). Thus, in the remaining impact phase, that general stays put unless and until another enemy's move (maybe another impact charge or a move in the maneuver phase) triggers the rule you cite. At the close of the combat, the general is not necessarily required to move. If no enemy charge or maneuver into contact shooting range, he will sit there until the JAP.

Whatever the circumstances, the general is not required to move until something else happens. More importantly, he is not destroyed as result of his BG's destruction in a phase other than the JAP.

If this general is not destroyed, why should the general in your example be destroyed?

Spike

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:56 pm**

spike:

Would be contacted or within shooting distance. if alone and within either, he must immediately move to a friendly BG (in any phase or turn). Rules even include that latter part. Page 50

whenever a commander finds himself alone (in any phase or turn), he must move to join a friendly BG or die (if within the above). Note also page 50: "...It is not necessary for the enemy to declare a charge on him, nor to halt their move at the point of contact..."

{I concede this can be read both ways, i.e. the enemy BG must move to this distance, but seems wrong that he could stay out there alone if an enemy was close enough to shoot at him}

However, under normal conditions, if the BG he is with is destroyed as the result of a pursuit (and other cases) the opponent has an opportunity to roll for him at a 10+. this we all agree. Page 109.

In my issue/problem, the commander should be lost b/c he can't move from a destroyed/routing/evading BG when bursting thru friends are involved since he can't leave a BG unless under specified conditions. the rules do not address this as one of those conditions. Indeed, going with you and hammy initially put forth, there is zero risk to the commander that has just seem those around him "magically" disappear - cut down like dogs!

Resulting in the question: When is a destroyed BG, when unable to complete its rout/evade due to bursting thru friends (page 49) removed from the table and what would happen to a commander with it?

I'm askng a very particular question that, while seemingly similiar to others, really stands on its own. But its not so particular that it hasn't already happened 2x within my playing the game.

Madcam

Posted: **Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:06 pm**

OK, so leaving aside whether the "if a BG's move" is a trigger event or a status event, we agree on the 49-50 component. We also agree that the 49-50 condition reads both ways. It all but never makes a difference, so v0v.

It sounds like the problem here is less about the general surviving than it is about the reduced risk. Your scenario is the only one where the general does not at least face a sniper-roll of 10+.

I remain unconvinced that the general must "leave" the BG to avoid destruction, because generals are not entangled into BG effects anywhere else unless committed to combat.

That he is safer in this situation than other BG calamities does seem incorrect, though. I'd rather see him face a 10+ roll than have the auto-destruct result. But neither of those appear in the rules now.

Spike

Slitherine

Generals with BGs