Slitherine

Karvon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 7:28 am

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 6:58 am

Kroche wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2024 6:38 pm Question re 'draws'. I finished a match down on points but with no outright victor. I know the match screen says we lost the field, but is there no such thing as a draw regard ELO? Unless scores are exact? I dropped by 15 ELO which I think is the same result as if opponent achieved a 25+ margin or routed 60%.

The game engine does not recognise the existence of draws. Hence the Elo system doesn't either.

Also the Elo system does not take into account degrees of victory. You get the same ranking change for a marginal victory as for a decisive victory.

Does this mean that games we consider to be draws, neither player breaking, are counted as a loss for both players or for the lower scoring player in terms of Slith Elo calculation?

Karvon

It depends on the scenario victory conditions in the game client.

For example:

In an Open Battle it will count as a loss to the lower scoring player.

In a Defensive Battle it will a count as a loss to the attacking player.

Wow, that's hardly ideal

Karvon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 1:18 pm Wow, that's hardly ideal

Why?

Different scenario types have different victory conditions because the scenarios are different, and those victory conditions are appropriate to that scenario type.

The whole point of a defensive scenario is that the attacker is forced to attack. The scenario points are balanced accordingly.

Why would it be wrong for that to feed into the Elo system?

If you want all scenarios to have the same victory conditions, all you need to do is play nothing but Open Battles. It is what most tournaments do anyway.

Open battle scenario is what I was referring to. If Elo victory is simply awarded to whoever has the most points, then that is likely to encourage more hit and run play in one off games as a decisive result is then unnecessary.

Karvon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 3:08 pm Open battle scenario is what I was referring to. If Elo victory is simply awarded to whoever has the most points, then that is likely to encourage more hit and run play in one off games as a decisive result is then unnecessary.

If the only thing people care about is Elo, which I strongly doubt.

Anyway the Slitherine Elo system is generic and has to work with any game they plug into it. It isn't going to accept nuanced scores from the game client.

So it is what it is, I am afraid.

Anyway, one off games don't have scores anyway, they just have a winner and a loser, the same as the Elo system. So it hard to see how the current Elo system will encourage desultory play. (I agree it won't do anything to discourage it either, but the status quo is maintained).

I don't think it was ever intended to manipulate play styles.

It seems that people here around have the only obiettive of saying I've an ELO bigger than yours so I'm a better baby. ELO is only a tool to make better balanced casual games

Hari72 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 4:33 pm It seems that people here around have the only obiettive of saying I've an ELO bigger than yours so I'm a better baby. ELO is only a tool to make better balanced casual games

Good point.

It seems that people here around have the only obiettive of saying I've an ELO bigger than yours so I'm a better baby. ELO is only a tool to make better balanced casual games

That is a strong statement, what brought you to that conclusion ?
Clearly it is easy to inflate your ELO rating, all you need to do is create another player ID and then start a load of games against yourself and concede them. Do you think players have been doing that ?
Personally I don't think so; but even if they have - so what.

Yes, exactly what I wanted to say! The same thing in reverse. - so what.
But I heard many people around worried of loosing 15 pts ELO or make the opponent gain them.

And I say: "so what".

Karvon wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2024 3:08 pm Open battle scenario is what I was referring to. If Elo victory is simply awarded to whoever has the most points, then that is likely to encourage more hit and run play in one off games as a decisive result is then unnecessary.

Why?

ELO isn't a prize or a badge for the best player!

According to the Slitherine Ancients tournament my ranking is 1000, as shows up un my games list.
However my ranking is currently 1045.
When I signed up for the tournament it was 1030.

Maybe this is a display error, it looks like it has our rankings the wrong way around.

Medieval looks correct.

tyronec wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2024 11:39 am According to the Slitherine Ancients tournament my ranking is 1000, as shows up un my games list.
However my ranking is currently 1045.
When I signed up for the tournament it was 1030.

Maybe this is a display error, it looks like it has our rankings the wrong way around.

Medieval looks correct.
rank.jpg

I am not sure I completely understand what you are saying.

Your current ranking in the Ancients Elo page is 1071: https://www.slitherine.com/leaderboard/ ... f-glory-ii

In the MP lobby "My Games" list the entry should show your ranking at the time each game started, as that is what will be used to determine adjustments at the end of the game. I can't tell if mine is showing correctly, as my current Elo is correctly 1000 anyway, and so is my opponent's.

It may be an oversight in the PBEM server Tournament game creation code, perhaps it is not feeding in the current Elo ranking to the client for display in the Lobby. If so it will probably the displayed numbers for ranking adjustment for this round, but hopefully we can get it fixed for the next round.

Could you post a screenshot of your Ancient MP Lobby showing the tooltip for one of the offending games.

If I have misunderstood what you are saying, please could you explain further.

I guess it is interesting for players to see the rankings before they start a game.
vbeyer should be 1000.

Thanks.

What about your other game vs vbeyer, does that also have the Elo ranks the wrong way round?

Yes.
It looks like the Slitherine games are wrong while the player generated games may be correct.

tyronec wrote: ↑Thu Jan 25, 2024 3:59 pm Yes.
It looks like the Slitherine games are wrong while the player generated games may be correct.

Fair enough. I will inform the PBEM programmer.

For the record, please could I have a screenshot of the MP lobby tooltip for the mirror.

Thanks. I have informed the necessary personnel.

Can you confirm that the same issue does not apply to Medieval? (It is showing correctly in my Medieval games)

Medieval looks correct for all of my games.

tyronec wrote: ↑Fri Jan 26, 2024 2:45 pm Medieval looks correct for all of my games.

Thanks