Slitherine

Hi Guille,

Maybe an update of Guille1434 Icon Collection (2020-12-14) ?

Thanks

Beautiful as always, good to see you are still active.

Hi Guille,

Great to see you're still putting out new units for those of us (maybe just me) who just don't feel like making the jump to 3D.

I had a couple questions...

Do you have a vanilla icon and mask for the Panther D?

Also, somewhere I read you had done some tweaking with unit classes before. Did you ever have trouble with crashing the game when trying to upgrade units in new classes? Everything else seems to work fine but when I test upgrading, the game crashes.

Thanks as always!

Many thanks for your effort and your icons. Also, the latest SdKfz 7,5cm looks nice. Without you and people like you, my mod would have been entirely impossible.

I wonder if the SdKfz 251/23 2 cm Anti-Tank is available somewhere. Or could you create one?

Thanks

maguro wrote: ↑Fri Mar 18, 2022 2:37 am Do you have a vanilla icon and mask for the Panther D?

Also, somewhere I read you had done some tweaking with unit classes before. Did you ever have trouble with crashing the game when trying to upgrade units in new classes? Everything else seems to work fine but when I test upgrading, the game crashes.

There is a Panther D and mask in the BaseIcons folder of DwightsCamoSprayshop download:
https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33526

The PAK mod has many new classes and they probably know a lot about those mechanics.

Hello guys:

Thanks for leaving your comments in this thread, thay are all valuable. Sorry for being absent for some days, I am very busy with my "real- life" work at present, which is, after all, what it allows me to pay my bills...

I will answer to all the ones who posted comments/questions here:

Vano2004: I am glad you liked the unit I posted. I really appreciate your nice words!

Terminator: I will make an update to the units pack download, but first I want to complete and release some projects that I am working on: Sdkfz 251/23, Sturmtiger, Fw-190A "family"...

Buffalohump: Also thanks to you for your positive comments! I plan to stick around here for some more time...

Maguro: As Locarnus pointed out, in the original DCS program download, there is a Panther D (vanilla style) set of base icon and mask. Anyway, I made a detailed base icon for the Panther D with detailed commander cupola, backdated muzzle brake, letterbox-type glacis opening for the front mounted machine gun, etc. I just need to make the mask file for it...
About the new unit classes upgrade bug you mention, I cannot give any opinion because I did not test the feature in the game, I just made modifications to the UI to include an extra unit class. Anyway I think that problem can be avoided by adding a switch to the new class unit: you just give the "noupgrade" trait to the unit when classed in the new unit class, and you give it a switch to position it in one of the "conventional" unit classes, where it should be upgraded without any problem.
An example: I would like to make a new unit class for heavy/siege artillery units, which will not fire to defend adjacent friendly units when attacked. So, I will make a primary "fire capable" siege artillery unit placed in the new "Siege Arty" class, and give it the "noupgrade" trait (also, with no movement points), and also I would make it able to switch that unit to a "move stance" where it would not be able to fire at all, but it would be able to move around the battlefield and also to be upgraded, because it would be classed in any of the regular unit classes. I think that would circumvent the problem, and I hope I was clear...

Messmann: Yes, I will make a unit for the Sdkfz 251/23 recon halftrack vehicle, with several switches: direct fire, AA, recon. Stay tuned!

Locarnus: The Sturmtiger is also in the pipeline!:-)

Thanks again to all, and see you later!

Here are the base icons, masks and some game-ready icons for the Panther D tank...

guille1434 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:55 am Hello guys:

Thanks for leaving your comments in this thread, thay are all valuable. Sorry for being absent for some days, I am very busy with my "real- life" work at present, which is, after all, what it allows me to pay my bills...

I will answer to all the ones who posted comments/questions here:

Vano2004: I am glad you liked the unit I posted. I really appreciate your nice words!

Terminator: I will make an update to the units pack download, but first I want to complete and release some projects that I am working on: Sdkfz 251/23, Sturmtiger, Fw-190A "family"...

Buffalohump: Also thanks to you for your positive comments! I plan to stick around here for some more time...

Maguro: As Locarnus pointed out, in the original DCS program download, there is a Panther D (vanilla style) set of base icon and mask. Anyway, I made a detailed base icon for the Panther D with detailed commander cupola, backdated muzzle brake, letterbox-type glacis opening for the front mounted machine gun, etc. I just need to make the mask file for it...
About the new unit classes upgrade bug you mention, I cannot give any opinion because I did not test the feature in the game, I just made modifications to the UI to include an extra unit class. Anyway I think that problem can be avoided by adding a switch to the new class unit: you just give the "noupgrade" trait to the unit when classed in the new unit class, and you give it a switch to position it in one of the "conventional" unit classes, where it should be upgraded without any problem.
An example: I would like to make a new unit class for heavy/siege artillery units, which will not fire to defend adjacent friendly units when attacked. So, I will make a primary "fire capable" siege artillery unit placed in the new "Siege Arty" class, and give it the "noupgrade" trait (also, with no movement points), and also I would make it able to switch that unit to a "move stance" where it would not be able to fire at all, but it would be able to move around the battlefield and also to be upgraded, because it would be classed in any of the regular unit classes. I think that would circumvent the problem, and I hope I was clear...

Messmann: Yes, I will make a unit for the Sdkfz 251/23 recon halftrack vehicle, with several switches: direct fire, AA, recon. Stay tuned!

Locarnus: The Sturmtiger is also in the pipeline!:-)

Thanks again to all, and see you later!

Hi Guille,

Thanks for the reply. It's been a long while since I was on the forum, but I've been back into PzC lately.

I was looking for the Panther D/A without sideskirts and found it a few pages back. Great work as always!

Locarnus: Thanks for pointing me toward the PAK mod. I had taken a look through those files previously, but hadn't found anything that shows where I've gone wrong. I'll have to look again though.

+1 for the Sturmtiger. We sorely need a good one.

Here is the long awaited Sturmtiger icon... I hope you like it!
More about this unit later...

guille1434 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:15 am Here is the long awaited Sturmtiger icon... I hope you like it!
More about this unit later...

This is great, thank you!
I plan to implement it for the next update, will start working on that update sometime in April.
Such an upgrade possibility should also make the expensive Tiger a much more enticing purchase option!
I'll have to take a look at the sound and animation files for that special Sturmtiger beast.

Hello Locarnus:

I am glad you liked the unit, because I made it by your request, also I spent a lot of time "researching" for good internet images about it, and aftyer that in drawing a nice looking icon, trying to somewhat correct the defects present in the old one. I like the results...

About the role and "classification" of the Sturmtiger, I was giving some thoughts to it, because historically, this was a unit designed with a very specialized mission and it was practically in a class of its own...

What class would I put the Sturmtigen in the equipment file? Not an easy question...

This vehicle was designed as an assault weapon to be used to destroy battlefield fortifications and very "entrenched" positions in built-up areas (reinforced buildings and bunkers built in cellars, for example).
So it was no an "artillery" type unit (I think this unit should not be able to provide defensive support fire to friendly units, besides it had very low ammunition quantity on board, just fourteen rockets counting the one in the firing tube and another one in the loading tray).

It was not an "Anti-Tank" weapon, either... I read in wikipedia that the weapon system lacked enough accuracy to hit the Remagen bridge, when the Germans tried to demolish that (large) bridge using the 38 cm demoilition rockets fired by the Sturmtiger. Figure it, it struggled to hit a bridge! Try hitting a smaller and mobile target as a tank! Ok, the 38 cm rockets had a huge warhead, so a near miss will be enough to destroy, severely damage or incapacitate a tank's crew, but still... So, it is not appropiate to put it in the "AT" class, because it should not hve that class bonuses when attacking (or being attacked by) tank units.

I would not put it in the "Tank" class either. That Sturmtiger could have been a lot of things, but a tank, it was not.

So, what would I do... In my heavily modded, and very personal (but still unreleased, hehe) mod, I would put this unit in the "Heavy/Siege Arty" class, where it would be capable of making ranged attacks, but not able to provide supporting fire. It also would lack the bonuses that the AT class give to such unit type when fighting against tanks. May be add a "direct fire" (with range = 0) switch to it, adding the "bunker killer" trait, to encourage the player to use the unit as intended, closing in to the target and blasting it with the large rockets. The Sturmtiger had a heavy enough armor to withstand that kind of tactics.

What to do with it if you want to add the Sturmtiger in the vanilla game or in a mod without modified UI (no new unit classes) like Battlefield Europe, and various others? I would implement the ranged fire/direct fire switch (the icon version with the luncher barrel set at 0° elevation is coming). The primary unit will be put in the artillery class, but with zero range (would this prevent the unit to provide defensive support fire??) and, of course with the "bunkerkiller" trait. The switched stance with ranged fire ability (range = 1) would be put in a different class, one without special, hardcoded bonuses (for example, it could be the recon class, without its special movement ability). As this switched unit would be a "nopurchase" and "noupgrade" one, the player will not see it in the recon class when looking at the units purchase screen, nor able to upgradeit to a recon type unit. Or, it can be alternatively put in a new class of its own (again, my beloved "Siege Artillery" class) as the secondary unit, that would be not visible in the purchase screen. With this scheme, we can also avoid the possible "upgrade bug" when trying to upgrade a unit present in a custom unit class, as reported by Maguro not long ago.

Well, I hope that all that babble was not excessively boring...

What is coming next about the Sturmtiger?

- A good firing animation is mandatory.

- An attack audio file (not my cup of tea, so to speak) so, help is requested with this.

- The icon with the 0° elevation launcher, for close ranged attacks.

- The Jagdsturmtiger!! This contraption of a name and also the model itself is most surely an invention from one (or several) model makers/scratch builders who made up a Sturmtiger with a 8,8 cm gun in place of the rocket launcher. As there was a documented case of a German field mainteinance unit installing a 7,5 cm Kwk long gun from a Pz IV into a KV-1 turret (there are photographs of such a field conversion), I think a skilled mainteinance unit with the appropiate equipment and parts could have made such a conversion, surely they will not find lack of space inside the big Sturmtiger´s casemate to install a 8,8 cm gun with a sizeable ammo reserve. So, this would be a nice un-historical (a "What-if") unit, but not an impossibility from the technical point of view... (And an interesting upgrade option for this vehicle in the Locarnus Add-on for the Battlefield Europe mod, too).

Well, that is all I have to say about this beast, may be someone can produce some nice ideas about the subject from all that... Forgive the long posting!

Hello to all:

As I commented in my previous posting, I would like to ask for help to anyone willing to execute a small test with the Panzer Corps software: I would like to know if an artillery class unit with 0 range is capable of making attacks on adjacent enemy units (both when initiating an attack, and also when responding to an enemy attacking), and more important, if such artillery with 0 range will NOT provide defensive fire to adjacent friendly units.

Thank you very much in advance!

guille1434 wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 1:29 pm Hello to all:

As I commented in my previous posting, I would like to ask for help to anyone willing to execute a small test with the Panzer Corps software: I would like to know if an artillery class unit with 0 range is capable of making attacks on adjacent enemy units (both when initiating an attack, and also when responding to an enemy attacking), and more important, if such artillery with 0 range will NOT provide defensive fire to adjacent friendly units.

Thank you very much in advance!

I'm pretty certain that range 0 for arty class unit behaves like range 1: Normal offensive fire, and defensive fire for adjacent units.

About the Sturmtiger implementation in my addon:
I already experimented with the stats some time ago, using the old icon. The main thing to note is the limitations of the Panzer Corps engine. Every implementation is a workaround dilemma with priorities.
While using existing classes in order to avoid summoning more bugs and issues:
1. For the Sturmtiger to be an upgrade option from a Tiger I, it has to be in the tank class (together with the Tiger I). And it has to be purchasable in that class.
2. In order to get the "suppression inducing mechanics", it has to be in the artillery class (or strategic bomber class...). Which in turn means defensive fire.
3. A hidden "Siege artillery class" would perhaps be possible as a replacement for the arty class mechanic, but not for the tank class (which it needs for upgrade purposes, regardless of the name of that class).

This already narrows it down a lot. Given those restrictions, what are the best options for implementation, given game engine restrictions?
4. The ~5000 meter range would translate to range 2 in game when in arty mode. Compared to eg Karl-Gerät and Wurfrahmen.
5. 14 rounds of ammo is imho quite a lot, given that the Sturmpanzer I only had a maximum of 7 rounds on the vehicle, the SU-152 carried 20 rounds and a Wurfrahmen 40 carried 6 rockets.

I would also take some reports with a grain of salt. That "not hitting the brigde" report is a bit strange for a weapon system intended to destroy bunkers. Without the range and combat situation, it is imho just one valuable piece of information that stick out among a general lack of information.

Well, I have given up on non-abstract realism a long time ago (after all the whole PzG/PzC unit concept is abstract anyway). And imho there is not much choice on that matter, if such special units are to be implemented at all (given the game engine restrictions).

After some more reading and experimenting regarding Sturmtiger balancing, I found it very hard to actually find good values for it.
Stats that make it both viable in-game as well as representative of the real life performance.
Animation and sound would probably require quite some effort.

It is a very interesting unit, though as a player I would only be interested in one unit of those.

The JagdSturmtiger however has imho more potential as an optional conversion. Timeline wise it would slot in between the early Elefant (mid 1943) and the Jagdtiger (late 1944).
Offering a better armored but slower alternative to the Jagdpanther.
And with "different leadership" as one of the BE narratives, such a more practical Tiger I conversion would imho also fit well within the Addon.
Sound and animations are also already there.

So in summary, while the Sturmtiger is great for historical variety, I would prioritize the JagdSturmtiger for early implementation (if a choice is necessary).

Best regards and thank you so much for your work!

PS: So far I found no solution for the "arty suppression mechanic without automatic support fire" problem.

Locarnus wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:39 pm
PS: So far I found no solution for the "arty suppression mechanic without automatic support fire" problem.

Guille and I had some lengthy conversations about this very subject. Can't believe it's been 2 years already!

viewtopic.php?f=147&t=36536&p=837828&hi ... ge#p837828

cw58 wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 1:06 am

Locarnus wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 1:39 pm
PS: So far I found no solution for the "arty suppression mechanic without automatic support fire" problem.

Guille and I had some lengthy conversations about this very subject. Can't believe it's been 2 years already!

viewtopic.php?f=147&t=36536&p=837828&hi ... ge#p837828

Very interesting, so class 18 would work for that. I'll have to take a more thorough look at that in the future.
Thank you very much for the hint!

Hello Locarnus and Cw58!

Thanks for helping in the discussion of this unit classes/traits discussion...

Cw58: Thanks for your timely intervention!! I had forgotten about the ideas exchange we had two years ago (but now I copied the that texts in a separate document stored in my modding "knowledge database" ). I was going to suggest trying to use the Strat Bomber unit class for the Sturmtiger unit to give it long term suppression without defensive fire support capabilty, but, of course we can use the Armored train class for that purpose! Thanks again to you for making all those very detailed tests at that time!

So, guys, this is what I was thinking about what can be done to implement the Sturmtiger in Locarnus "BE mod's mod"...

Sturmtiger primary switch: a tank class unit, with range = 0, making it able to be upgraded from regular Tiger gun tank at a reduced cost. It would also have the "bunkerkiller" trait because it would attack them from close range, gaining accuracy to land the big rockets on target.

Sturmtiger secondary switch: an armored train class unit, with range = 2, having long term suprresion but no defensive fire support capability. It would have the "nopurchase" trait, for making it non.visible in the tank class purchase screen. Besides, no "bunkerkiller" trait, because when firing from longer ranges, it would suffer an accuracy loss, and can act as a suppressive, heavy bombardment weapon. Or, alternatively, in order to make it less an effective "long range tank killer", give it lower Hard Attack value compared to the direct fire mode switch, but keeping the "bunkerkiller" trait.

Locarnus: I completely agree with you with the discussed stat values you propose. Two hexes in-game range is correct for a weapon with 6 km range, also the ammo count is not small when compared to other similarly armed or similar role units (like Wurfrahmen40 and Sturmpanzer I, cited by you), so, yes, this unit has to have more ammo compared to those two examples, I think it should have an ammo value of 5 points at least.

In what would be "my mod" I would implement the Sturmtiger with a triple switch:

- Primary: In a separate "Siege Artillery" class, for the sake of having it in a separate purchase screen grouped with other heavy artillery systems. It would behave just as a large assault gun: Range = 0, "bunkerkiller" trait, nolong term suppresion and no defensive fire ability.

- Secondary: Tank Class, this is to enable putting the Sturmtiger in the same upgrade series as the Tiger tank, to make possible upgrading it without paying full prestige cost. It would have the "nopurchase" trait, for making it non.visible in the tank class purchase screen. That idea was not considered by me back at the time, but it is a very good one. Credit and thanks to you, Locarnus, for it! It would have the same value stats as the siege artilery class unit.

- Tertiary: Armored Train class, with range = 2, and all the attributes described in the description for the secondary switch in the Locarnus Add-on mod. I would make it non-visible in the purchase screen by means of giving an "out of time range" availability date (for example 01.01.1930 to 02.01.1930), to avoid the "triple switch game freezing bug" problem.

Some related news:

- The "Jagd Sturmtiger" icon will be ready soon, I already made a "prototype" and it looks, to my eye, good enough!

The only problem with it is that because it has the long 8,8 cm gun barrel mounted up in the front of the vehicle, I had to cut down the barrel lenght to make it fit inside the maximum 148 pixel width allowed by the icon image file. It doesn't look very bad, fortunately.

I am thinking about giving this unit a switch to enable it a function of AT fire overwatch: making it an artillery class unit capable of providing defensive fire with range = 1, but with negative Hard Attack value and zero Soft attack value. Making it able to give support fire to friendly adjacent units just when they attacked by enemy tank (or any other "hard target" type) units. May be this is not to be used in a more "strategic scale" mod as Battlefield Europe is, but it would be a nice option for more "tactical" scaled mods/scenarios/maps.

- I will make the direct fire version of the regular Sturmtiger with zero elevation barrel, soon enough also.


Some non-related news :

- Will complete my research about the variants of the Fw-190A fighter in order to try to give more different characteristics to the different sub-variants and make them more specialized/useful).

- Jager Infantry units: again in order to give them a more specialized role (not just another parachute infantry unit without air-drop ability), I was thinking about making them "forest (or jungle) specialists". I would give them a switch, coupled with a specific move type only for forested hexes, where they would have the camo trait (those guys would be trained as forest camouflage specialists), range=1, with just (somewhat reduced) soft attack values and no hard attack capabilty, reflecting te ability to make ambushes in forested terrains by means of always hitting first in one turn against an enemy with range = 0 (but said enemy would be able to attack them in the following turn, something like "forest snipers").
I have a complete set of icons for that type of units, I only have to make the "special" switch icon derivative.

Comments, ideas, etc... are always welcome!!

Greetings and best wishes!!

Hi Guille

Thanks for the fantastic units! May I ask for the icons of Romanian Mot infantry and HW infantry? Thank you.

Regards,

Birgeria

Meanwhile...

The last update on Nikivdd Soviet grand campaign included a bunch of new units in its equipment file... Amogst them, there were German Stosstruppen infantry type units...

Some historical background, quoted from wikipedia, about storm troops or assault troops...

Shock troops or assault troops are formations created to lead an attack. They are often better trained and equipped than other infantry, and expected to take heavy casualties even in successful operations.

"Shock troop" is a calque, a loose translation of the German word Stoßtrupp. Assault troops are typically organized for mobility with the intention that they will penetrate enemy defenses and attack into the enemy's vulnerable rear areas. Any specialized, elite unit formed to fight an engagement via overwhelming assault (usually) would be considered shock troops, as opposed to "special forces" or commando-style units (intended mostly for covert operations). Both types of units could fight behind enemy lines, by surprise if required, however.

Although the term "shock troops" became popular in the 20th century, the concept is not new, and Western European armies in past centuries called them the forlorn hope. Presently, the term is rarely used, as the strategic concepts behind it have become standard contemporary military thinking.

During the Second World War, the Red Army of the Soviet Union deployed five shock armies between 1941 and 1945. Many of the units, which spearheaded the Soviet offensives on the Eastern Front from the Battle of Stalingrad (1942–1943) to the Battle of Berlin (1945), were shock armies. Shock armies had high proportions of infantry, engineers, and field artillery, but with less emphasis on operational mobility and sustainability. Soviet shock armies were characterized by a higher allocation of army-level artillery units to break German defense positions by weight of fire, and often had heavy tank regiments or heavy self-propelled gun regiments to add additional direct fire-support. Once a shock army had made a breach in an enemy tactical position, more mobile units such as tank and mechanized corps would insert themselves through the shock army's positions with the mission of penetrating deep into the enemy rear area. By the end of the war, though, Soviet guards armies typically enjoyed superior artillery support to that of the shock armies.

Shock armies were instrumental in the execution of deep operation (also known as Soviet deep battle). The central composition of the deep operation was the shock army, each acting either in cooperation with each other or independently as part of a strategic front operation. Several shock armies would be subordinated to a strategic front.

Well-known shock armies include the 2nd Shock Army, which spearheaded several offensives in the Leningrad area, and the 3rd Shock Army, which played a key role in the Battle of Berlin.

A Soviet ad hoc combat group was a mixed-arms unit of about 80 men in assault groups of six to eight men, closely supported by field artillery. These tactical units were able to apply the tactics of house-to-house fighting that the Soviets had been forced to develop and refine at each Festungsstadt (fortress city) they had encountered from Stalingrad to Berlin.

The Yugoslav Partisans also established "shock" units during World War II, commencing in February 1942. These initially formed as company- and battalion-sized units, and later grew into brigades.

In or amongst the German armed forces, large armies such as the Waffen-SS received training with the best gear and weapons, primarily used to hit weak points. The Waffen-SS also served as a heavy unit. Used to smash well-armed and -equipped armies on the Eastern Front, the Waffen-SS lost its efficacy after Kursk (1943), but nevertheless later fought in many theaters and played a role in the Battle of the Bulge (1944–1945).

Here are icons for German stosstruppen (in regular and SE styles) and their Soviet counterpart... Enjoy!!

About the animations for those units, the Soviet one can use the animation from the Soviet Engineers, and the German ones can use the attached ones...