Slitherine

So Judea is refusing everyone's proposals.

I'm thinking Judea is not long for this world.

Geffalrus wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:48 am Oh is that my cue?

Alright, as one of the most recent.........stewards.......of the land in question, I will offer this as a peace proposal compromise:

1) Judea is allowed to regain their original territory of Trichontis (spelling???) as well as the southernmost region of Syria. That region in Syria is home to crucial caravan and trade buildings.

2) The net result is that Judean control of Phoenicia and Syria shall be restored and maintained.

3) Ptolemy shall keep the region they gained near Gaza in southern Palestine as this is an objective for them. They shall also keep Petra.

4) Ptolemy shall make a generous financial contribution to the Judean coffers in payment for the Gazan land and the rights to Petra.

5) These concessions shall all be done in a spirit of good faith, and with the knowledge that borders can be adjusted later.

6) Judea shall have a free hand in acquiring territory in Palmyra and Saracina provinces. Nabatea and Arabia Deserta shall remain under the protection of Ptolemy. If Judea worries about border raids or invasions from those dwelling there, then they must do what all civilized nations do, and pay for a border guard army. This can be part of the negotiation of the actual size of the Ptolemaic monetary gift.

So has spoken the Lord of Anatolia, Macedon, and Thrace.

Ptolemy finds these conditions somewhat onerous but in the spirit of goodwill Egypt will agree to these terms provided they are agreed by Judea and the Seleucids BEFORE there are any attacks on Egyptian troops by the Seleucids and provided it is accepted that Palestine Province (rather than Syria or Phoenicia) is no longer subject to Judean control.

When you have Hammering Herod on the mat and in a choke lock, showing the patience of Job is not a good idea. Best to finish off the match with some entertaining panache before you find the roles reversed and discover there is a reason he is called Hammering Herod. Two cents worth from the peanut gallery.

Apparently there's another region in Palestine that's under Ptolemaic occupation. Really wish players could check the map in between turns.....

Anyway, if this is a sticking point for Ptolemy, then it should factor into the monetary compensation amount. More money for Judea.

Jagger2002 wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:57 pm When you have Hammering Herod on the mat and in a choke lock, showing the patience of Job is not a good idea. Best to finish off the match with some entertaining panache before you find the roles reversed and discover there is a reason he is called Hammering Herod. Two cents worth from the peanut gallery.

"Hammering Herod" is not the problem here.......its his two big Bro's that for some reason insist on bailing him out from his own screw ups

Yeah, well, Brother A donated THREE WHOLE PROVINCES to give the player in charge of the one province minor something to do, with the understanding that there would be some payoff for Brother A in the future. That investment is proving to have been a mistake, since Judea has done nothing productive, and instead spends all it's time picking fights with bigger players and generally mouthing off.

My patience with this situation is rapidly reaching its breaking point. Accept the deal as is or negotiate extremely politely to regain control of the Palestine regions from devoncop who rightfully owns them as spear-won-land. There is no other option open to you.

I must confess the cessation of Sinai seems excessive, especially as the metal deposits there are vital and irreplaceable for Egypt. In fact I'm a bit surprised those mines have remained independent and hence unusable by anyone thus far.

The Antigonid proposal seems reasonable to me as a basis for discussions.

Also, perhaps further Judean compensation could come from Arabian territories. Arabia has become an overly huge blob which likes to raid people indiscriminately, and frankly I would prefer Judea as a southern neighbor.

Admittedly I'm an overly huge blog myself, but at least we don't raid.

jimwinsor wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:29 pm Also, perhaps further Judean compensation could come from Arabian territories. Arabia has become an overly huge blob which likes to raid people indiscriminately, and frankly I would prefer Judea as a southern neighbor.

Admittedly I'm an overly huge blog myself, but at least we don't raid.

If you ally with them they don't raid you

It's the only reason I did tbh !

devoncop wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:36 pmPtolemy finds these conditions somewhat onerous but in the spirit of goodwill Egypt will agree to these terms provided they are agreed by Judea and the Seleucids BEFORE there are any attacks on Egyptian troops by the Seleucids and provided it is accepted that Palestine Province (rather than Syria or Phoenicia) is no longer subject to Judean control.

In what way are these conditions onerous to Ptolemy? Where is there any "spirit of goodwill"? You would have unilaterally broken a deal and only gained from it.

Geffalrus wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:09 pm Apparently there's another region in Palestine that's under Ptolemaic occupation. Really wish players could check the map in between turns.....

Anyway, if this is a sticking point for Ptolemy, then it should factor into the monetary compensation amount. More money for Judea.

Judea has recaptured Samaria, thus giving it back two out of three regions in Palaestina.

Geffalrus wrote: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:42 pm Yeah, well, Brother A donated THREE WHOLE PROVINCES to give the player in charge of the one province minor something to do, with the understanding that there would be some payoff for Brother A in the future. That investment is proving to have been a mistake, since Judea has done nothing productive, and instead spends all it's time picking fights with bigger players and generally mouthing off.

My patience with this situation is rapidly reaching its breaking point. Accept the deal as is or negotiate extremely politely to regain control of the Palestine regions from devoncop who rightfully owns them as spear-won-land. There is no other option open to you.

When has Judea "picked a fight"? Judea's actions have been: being declared war on by Arabia (something which I have proved truly happened), making a deal with Ptolemy for their non-intervention in return for Judean agreement not to attempt to take their capital (something which I have, again, proven), being declared war on by Ptolemy in violation of said deal, insisting on her rights to not be taken advantage of by Ptolemy, seeking allies to defend against Ptolemy's aggression, and refusing to be taken advantage of.

In recognition of Seleucus' and Antigonus' desire for compromise, Judea once again offers a peace:

1. All Judean holdings prior to the war will be returned, with the possible exception of Gaza.
2. Judea agrees to limit its fleet to a maximum of 16 ships, unless war should break out between Judea and a country with a larger navy.
3. Ptolemy returns to the pre-war deal they made with Judea with respect to Arabia.
4. Ptolemy will not place permanent forces in the Sinai province or in Gaza (they may place permanent forces in the areas of Nabatea province not under Judean control), and may not fortify Gaza.
5. Judea will not take any independent regions in Arabia further south then Saracina province.
6. Ptolemy will no longer support her allies in aggressive wars against Judea.
7. Ptolemy will not object to any Judean actions that do not directly affect her, other then those explicitly forbidden in this treaty.

This peace is as much as Judea will concede. Even Ptolemy has now gained from his wicked deal-breaking, retaining Gaza. Should this deal be accepted, Judea would be worse off then they were before Ptolemy's deal-breaking.

Judea will go no further.

Given every nation in the region that has a navy has one larger than 16 ships point two is the most worthless "concession" ever devised.....I am surprised concession number 3 was not a commitment by Judea not to capture the Carthaginian capital.

The latest proposals by Judea are unacceptable.

The peace proposals put forward by the Antigonids and supported by the Seleucids are the only show in town.

War update:

Arabia has been a busy little beaver this turn, taking both Galillea and Samaria, while Ptolemy stormed Jerusalem. Oh, and some strange men painted in blue who call themselves Picts unsuccessfully raided Gallilea from the sea:


Because Arabia now holds much of the disputed territory, a solution presents itself: Egypt releases Jerusalem, then makes peace with Judea and Seleucia the following turn. This leaves Judea in a position, with Seleucid assistance, to retake the lands it formerly held from Arabia. Plus of course now neutral Jerusalem. Note this will allow Judea to reconstitute the Palestina province.

Nabatea will get to keep Trachonitis under this arrangement, but since that war torn region's sole contribution to civilization is currently a Smokehouse, that shouldn't be a deal killer, IMO.

Judea will have a free hand to pursue the war and peace with Arabia, with Seleucid assistance, as far as he likes, but I suspect it is unlikely Judea will want to push into the deep desert. I know I sure as heck wouldn't.

Further terms: Egypt will downgrade it's alliance with Arabia to a Cooperation, or failing that break it altogether. Countries bordering Arabia need a free hand to punish them for their raiding ways (as if the Picts weren't bad enough).

Also, Egypt will agree to stop gifting money to countries at war with either Judea or Seleucia (so you see, in addition to its territorial gains made in the name of "territorial integrity," Egypt will actually make money under this treaty).

And lastly, the regions forming the Palmyrena province will become a "protectorate" of the Seleucid Empire, meaning it will remain in independent hands ... until such time as I, and I alone, decide to alter that status. Consider that my "arbitration fee." Considering no one as yet has considered them worth the effort of conquest, this does not strike me as particularly controversial.

If these terms are agreeable to Ptolemy, simply release Jerusalem next turn, and send Judea and Seleucids a peace offer. If you do that, then we'll know we have a deal. If you don't, then we'll know we don't.

Egypt thanks the Seleucids for their contribution to this debate.

Egypt has unfortunately already submitted its turn so the suggestions cannot be acted upon until next year although fortuitously, as a result of Egyptian desire for peace the peace offers he refers to have already been sent to Judea and the Seleucids along with a firm promise of instructing Arabia to cease hostilities with both countries..

If these are accepted then both Judea and the Seleucids will of course be able to continue their action against Arabia without Egyptian interference. This meets the major Seleucid demand.

With regard to Palaestina Province this was agreed under the Antigonid Peace plan to come under Egyptian control as part of the peace agreement. Judea (not Arabia) has taken Samaria by the end of the turn (so this screenshot seems odd) but lost Hierosolyma (Jerusalem) regions in Palaestina Province this turn. Egypt is committed to abiding by the Antigonid Peace plan as originally presented .

With regard to Egyptian subsidies to nations that are fighting the Seleucids and Judeans, these will of course end as soon as both countries accept peace with Egypt. The Seleucids can hardly expect Egypt not to help those opposing it when it has just declared war on Egypt and it's allies !

If the Seleucids do not find these terms acceptable then unless a more palatable offer is presented they should indeed look forward to slogging through multiple regions of somewhat uninviting and scorched earth desert ......

One further thought strikes me.

The total adoption of the Judean position by the Seleucids in contrast to the supportive but more balanced Antigonid position would seem an obvious play to turn the Judeans into a pseudo client state of the Seleucids at the expense of their previous Antigonid benefactors......

It seems the Seleucids are looking beyond their alliance with the Antigonids already......probably not that wise when Antigonid troops are still operating in your country

jimwinsor wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:20 am ... Oh, and some strange men painted in blue who call themselves Picts unsuccessfully raided Gallilea from the sea:

...

och sorry about that, didn't spot the change in owner. But no need to feel bad about it as the Dutch have offered to recompense the Pictish state for the temporary loss of income from Judea

loki100 wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 7:57 am

jimwinsor wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:20 am ... Oh, and some strange men painted in blue who call themselves Picts unsuccessfully raided Gallilea from the sea:

...

och sorry about that, didn't spot the change in owner. But no need to feel bad about it as the Dutch have offered to recompense the Pictish state for the temporary loss of income from Judea

Speaking of which......about this raiding business....I am assuming no Egyptian regions will be targeted ?

jimwinsor wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 5:20 amBecause Arabia now holds much of the disputed territory, a solution presents itself: Egypt releases Jerusalem, then makes peace with Judea and Seleucia the following turn. This leaves Judea in a position, with Seleucid assistance, to retake the lands it formerly held from Arabia. Plus of course now neutral Jerusalem. Note this will allow Judea to reconstitute the Palestina province.

Nabatea will get to keep Trachonitis under this arrangement, but since that war torn region's sole contribution to civilization is currently a Smokehouse, that shouldn't be a deal killer, IMO.

Judea will have a free hand to pursue the war and peace with Arabia, with Seleucid assistance, as far as he likes, but I suspect it is unlikely Judea will want to push into the deep desert. I know I sure as heck wouldn't.

Further terms: Egypt will downgrade it's alliance with Arabia to a Cooperation, or failing that break it altogether. Countries bordering Arabia need a free hand to punish them for their raiding ways (as if the Picts weren't bad enough).

Also, Egypt will agree to stop gifting money to countries at war with either Judea or Seleucia (so you see, in addition to its territorial gains made in the name of "territorial integrity," Egypt will actually make money under this treaty).

And lastly, the regions forming the Palmyrena province will become a "protectorate" of the Seleucid Empire, meaning it will remain in independent hands ... until such time as I, and I alone, decide to alter that status. Consider that my "arbitration fee." Considering no one as yet has considered them worth the effort of conquest, this does not strike me as particularly controversial.

If these terms are agreeable to Ptolemy, simply release Jerusalem next turn, and send Judea and Seleucids a peace offer. If you do that, then we'll know we have a deal. If you don't, then we'll know we don't.

This deal is reluctantly accepted by Judea. The destruction of Judea's last major army, loss of all remaining lands in the Holy Land, and horrific desecration of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem leave Judea no other choice.

devoncop wrote: Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:49 amWith regard to Palaestina Province this was agreed under the Antigonid Peace plan to come under Egyptian control as part of the peace agreement. Judea (not Arabia) has taken Samaria by the end of the turn (so this screenshot seems odd) but lost Hierosolyma (Jerusalem) regions in Palaestina Province this turn. Egypt is committed to abiding by the Antigonid Peace plan as originally presented.

No, Arabia has now taken Samaria.
However, should Ptolemy not return Jerusalem, Judea will fight to the death. We would rather die then lose the holiest city on the face of the Earth.

[quote=Yaitz331 Judea will fight to the death. We would rather die then lose the holiest city on the face of the Earth.
[/quote]


A moment of high drama as Judea, claiming it has thrown away its main army pledges to fight on to the death (of the last Seleucid soldier)

Btw I often find that I cannot abandon a region conquered on the previous turn. Is there something I'm missing? Some precondition I haven't met?