Slitherine

Hope this answers related questions

McGuba wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:57 pm

PeteMitchell wrote: ↑Mon Jan 04, 2021 8:20 pm Thanks McGuba... OK, maybe I have overlooked something here by pressing "Proceed" to quickly, I will check again. Thanks!

Normally you should not be able to press "Proceed" until you make your choice. The "Proceed" button is gray until you decide which version you intend to play, so I do not really understand, but whatever...

Thanks McGuba for the sub

Curious why did you not attempt to concentrate on taking out Tobruk? That was my first priority, but now you have a lot more to worry about as you are not set up to pressure El Alamein area. That is what I am hoping to bust through, it is not easy, but going to pushing through and since I have had Tobruk and the mines eliminated from that area, I now have an upgrade center for Afrika. It is working out pretty good as Rommel is in Pz3J

goose_2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:44 pm Curious why did you not attempt to concentrate on taking out Tobruk? That was my first priority, but now you have a lot more to worry about as you are not set up to pressure El Alamein area. That is what I am hoping to bust through, it is not easy, but going to pushing through and since I have had Tobruk and the mines eliminated from that area, I now have an upgrade center for Afrika. It is working out pretty good as Rommel is in Pz3J

Good point about Tobruk upgrading the tank, did nt know that.

I attacked towards Mersa Matruh, for three reasons.
First, I show an opportunity, since it was light defended at that time.
Second, I was hoping for them to attack me from El Alamein and Alexandria area, so to take out future defendants.
Third, because I did not have enough artillery support and air force. Historically, Tobruk did not fall from first attack.

As it is right now, I have to bring more artillery and armor to attack Tobruk,
or maybe I need to do an El Alamein defensive stand, Alexandria, Cairo is way after, we shall see how it goes.
Not sure, since I do not have any knowledge of this.

Also, I forgot to report I got three heroes so far!

One is with a panzer, took a movement hero, future Tiger
the other is an infantry unit, gained spotting
the third is a Me 109 west with an attack +1 hero, if I remember correctly

Question, in which cities we can upgrade units? I mean is there a special symbol to recognize them?

Venice for example has a symbol like <<.
The Germans cities, I think have a cross +
How about the Romanians?
And also, can I upgrade in soviet cities? or need to send back to Germany?

All these assuming there is enough prestige

thanks

faos333 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 12:48 am

goose_2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 11:44 pm Curious why did you not attempt to concentrate on taking out Tobruk? That was my first priority, but now you have a lot more to worry about as you are not set up to pressure El Alamein area. That is what I am hoping to bust through, it is not easy, but going to pushing through and since I have had Tobruk and the mines eliminated from that area, I now have an upgrade center for Afrika. It is working out pretty good as Rommel is in Pz3J

Good point about Tobruk upgrading the tank, did nt know that.

I attacked towards Mersa Matruh, for three reasons.
First, I show an opportunity, since it was light defended at that time.
Second, I was hoping for them to attack me from El Alamein and Alexandria area, so to take out future defendants.
Third, because I did not have enough artillery support and air force. Historically, Tobruk did not fall from first attack.

As it is right now, I have to bring more artillery and armor to attack Tobruk,
or maybe I need to do an El Alamein defensive stand, Alexandria, Cairo is way after, we shall see how it goes.
Not sure, since I do not have any knowledge of this.

After I had messed up Africa a bit in my AAR above... I learnt that there are different approaches to it...

You can can capture (and defend) Tobruk earlier or you can also capture Tobruk later. One idea could be to read a bit about what happened when in Africa and then you might know what will happen in the mod and when you need to be ready for defense.

Re Mersa Matruh, historically the Axis took Tobruk before Mersa Matruh and also won the battle there but Mersa Matruh might not be the best place (in this mod) to hold the line against the British troops...

It is also possible (maybe even easier) to hold around https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halfaya_Pass
(aka Hellfire Pass)

Using Tobruk as an upgrade place is of course a very valid and important point, especially if you plan to stick around in Africa for a bit, plus I suggest to capture it with a German unit...

faos333 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:04 am Also, I forgot to report I got three heroes so far!

One is with a panzer, took a movement hero, future Tiger
the other is an infantry unit, gained spotting
the third is a Me 109 west with an attack +1 hero, if I remember correctly

Sounds good!

Tigers are very expensive in this mod... as in reality, back then the Tiger was around 2.5 times more expensive than the Panther.

Protect your Pz III, they can become your future Panthers at a discounted rate...

faos333 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:19 am Question, in which cities we can upgrade units? I mean is there a special symbol to recognize them?

Venice for example has a symbol like <<.
The Germans cities, I think have a cross +
How about the Romanians?
And also, can I upgrade in soviet cities? or need to send back to Germany?

All these assuming there is enough prestige

thanks

Yes, you can upgrade in cities with << and with + (might even be said in one of the info boxes in the beginning)

The German cities have the + so you know which one you need to hold if you don't want to lose at the end... also these cities are relevant for the Allied air raids (and corresponding drops in prestige)

Romanians also upgrade in << and + cities (i.e. in Germany)

You can't upgrade in SU cities, historically tank crews (often) received training on new equipment in Germany

PeteMitchell wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 6:42 am ..... Using Tobruk as an upgrade place is of course a very valid and important point, especially if you plan to stick around in Africa for a bit, plus I suggest to capture it with a German unit .....

Based on your comments which are very helpful, I think we need to discuss about 42-43 strategic alternatives.

So, let’s examine some options:
N. Afrika we know from history that Operation Torch (US landings in Morocco) took place in November 42, being in turn 21 (April 42) this is few months from now. Then in March 43 the British Eighth Army, advanced westward along the North African coast and reached the Tunisian border. Practically, this means a war on two fronts. Which finishes with the diminish of DAK. Followed by south Italy allied landings in September 43 and another fall back to Rome etc.

Neither of these developments gives the advantage to win, earn prestige, solve the oil crisis etc.
So, an interesting game changer idea, which could happen historically as well, is: instead of focusing on Tobruk, attack and take Alexandria/Cairo, cross Suez Canal abandon N. Afrika and sit comfortably defensive behind it?

Then, when attacks from Army Group South Caucasus advance to Baku, DAK can attack the Middle East Oil Fields. Thus, earning the Oil Fields, solve the oil crisis problem, gain prestige and financing the war effort in 43.

goose_2 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 05, 2021 6:51 pm ....... this stuns me...The Kiev pocket was massive...I eliminated some of it, but most just disappeared after surrounding it ….much, much easier to get them to surrender

Looked up again this issue through my messages game inbox, it says that Bialystok and Minsk units have been surrounded! So surrended! Did not notice it, but this happened

faos333 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:15 pm Based on your comments which are very helpful, I think we need to discuss about 42-43 strategic alternatives.

Thanks, it would be good to hear McGuba and/or others on this as well.

faos333 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:15 pm So, let’s examine some options:
N. Afrika we know from history that Operation Torch (US landings in Morocco) took place in November 42, being in turn 21 (April 42) this is few months from now. Then in March 43 the British Eighth Army, advanced westward along the North African coast and reached the Tunisian border. Practically, this means a war on two fronts. Which finishes with the diminish of DAK. Followed by south Italy allied landings in September 43 and another fall back to Rome etc.

Neither of these developments gives the advantage to win, earn prestige, solve the oil crisis etc.

As far as I know, the mod includes several event and/or time triggers that allow you to "change history" and turn the page in North Africa / the Mediterranean Sea / Italy (as well as almost anywhere else).

If you can just hold the line somwhere in Libya againt the British and Commonwealth troops as well as hold Tunis against US troops, no additional amphibious operations will happen against Sicily or mainland Italy.

If you can capture Cairo by around turn 33 (or so), major British reinforcements won't appear. However, some more British troops may appear when you cross Sinai Peninsula into Palestine.

faos333 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 3:15 pm Neither of these developments gives the advantage to win, earn prestige, solve the oil crisis etc.
So, an interesting game changer idea, which could happen historically as well, is: instead of focusing on Tobruk, attack and take Alexandria/Cairo, cross Suez Canal abandon N. Afrika and sit comfortably defensive behind it?

Then, when attacks from Army Group South Caucasus advance to Baku, DAK can attack the Middle East Oil Fields. Thus, earning the Oil Fields, solve the oil crisis problem, gain prestige and financing the war effort in 43.

This could be possible. Two thoughts:
1. I don't know what happens with the mod triggers if you ignore Tobruk entirely. I know there are triggers based on the number of cities you hold in the Middle East.
2. I don't know if the US troops (if not defeated in Tunis) may march onwards towards Cairo, i.e. to follow you into the Middle East. While in this case, most likely the AI wouldn't be able to cross the Suez canal

As said, it would be good to hear McGuba on this as well, thanks!

faos333 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:04 am Also, I forgot to report I got three heroes so far!

One is with a panzer, took a movement hero, future Tiger
the other is an infantry unit, gained spotting
the third is a Me 109 west with an attack +1 hero, if I remember correctly

wait what?

You get heroes in BE? Are you serious? I have not had that happened, I have hoped for it, but did not believe it was possible.
Is it random, or based on # of kills like the game?
How come I have not received any heroes?

goose_2 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 7:16 pm

faos333 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 06, 2021 1:04 am Also, I forgot to report I got three heroes so far!

One is with a panzer, took a movement hero, future Tiger
the other is an infantry unit, gained spotting
the third is a Me 109 west with an attack +1 hero, if I remember correctly

wait what?

You get heroes in BE? Are you serious? I have not had that happened, I have hoped for it, but did not believe it was possible.
Is it random, or based on # of kills like the game?
How come I have not received any heroes?

The units that got heroes, do not have enough kills, but I think they were given as a result of extraordinary battle results
I was amazed too, to find out, all three of them are far below 100 kills.

Edited, look up the manual inside the game Library, it says heroes can be awarded after 30 kills

Strategic assesment April 1942, considering strategic objectives 42-43.

So far we have achieved our main goal for 1941 which is attacking Moscow, actually being very close to win the city.
All other fronts have taken less of our resources. Leningrad all quite region. Sea Lion abandoned, Malta not touched. So no Decisive Victory, if a understand correct the game mechanics.

Our goal is a marginal victory by taking the all Soviet Union objectives and holding + Objectives in Germany by the end of game.

So, lets pause for short time and discuss the overall strategic situation and choices that need to be made.
N. Afrika has been delt in my previous post.

To win a marginal is needed to take and hold by last turn, among others these main battle fields: Archangel, Leningrad, Moscow, Stalingrand, Astrahan and Caucasus.

What objectives and operations should we go for 42 and 43?
Although I do not know the Battlefield Mod triggers, we all know historical outcomes and dates of events and I believe that to a greater or lesser extent are incorporated in this Mod.

Assuming we take and hold Moscow, then next big thing seems to be coming from the South Army Group, attack to Rostov, then march south to conquer as much as possible in order to win the oil fields there.
At the same time leaving Krimaia as it is, until Kart Great artillery is available.

Given that we don’t have the needed supplies and armies to aggresively fight in all fronts, Army Group North and Army Group Center should transfer artillery, armor etc to Army Group South. Leaving to center or north basic units in order to defend and counter attack if lines are breached. The same applies to air units.

Goals to reach by end of 42.
It would be ideal, if we can control the railway line connecting Moscow to Rostov and then Grozny in Caucasus.
This will enable fast transfer and redeployment of Pz Divisions, Infantry etc when needed. For this to achieve we need to take and hold the outside perimeter of these cities: Moscow, Kaluga, Bryansk, Orel, Kursk, Belgorod, Kharkov, Stalino, Rostov, Voroshilovsk and finally Grozny.

This is a line consisting of Oka river in the north, followed by the Donets River all the way to the south, till the junction with the Don.

Game map wise this involves a line from north to south of more than 50 hexes!!!

By doing this it means we are in control of all the city hexes involved and in the same time advancing to the south Caucasus! I know it sounds a bit to much optimistic, but I am not proposing a static defense.
The answer is called “elastic defence”. If and when lines are breached by the AI, let the come to the rear, where our Panzer and other fire brigade types of forces will deal with them.

In the mean time we are holding Rostov and advancing to Caucasus.

I recon that would be useful if you can concentrate in time a force of:
~10 tanks, ~10 Artillery units, 2 Gebirgjagers divisions, ~ 10 infantry divisions, 2 Pioneers, 2 Bridge engineers, 2 kradschutzen, 1 Falshirmjager, the special ops unit, 4 fighters, 2 Ju 87 the whole of Stukageswander, 1 Me 110 and 5 level bombers.

Of course all these units are not currently available, but need to fight their way south to reach the front lines around Rostov, open the railway stations etc.

So what are your personal opinions on this?

Keep in mind, there are still several ways to win this mod!

By the way as another thought for you guys: if you manage to capture and hold just one victory objective on the British Isles before D-Day, you can delay and/or even prevent D-Day... which makes a MV maybe easier...

Many questions appeared here, I try to answere them, but the thing is maybe it would be better to post your questions in the main topic of the BE mod as there is a better chance that me or other experienced players like Uhu or Pete would see them.

As for heroes: the game only gives heroes and awards (medals) if you are playing the scenario(s) in campaign mode. That is if you start a game them from the main campaign screen where you can see the four starting points with pictures: Poland, France, the Med and Barbarossa. If you play an individual scenario starting it from the "Scenario" folder heroes and awards are not given to units. Heroes and medals are also not given if you play multiplayer scenarios through the server. It has nothing to do with this mod, it is the same with the vanilla campaigns and scenrios. Probably you did not notice it because the vanilla scenarios are short and in that short timespan you did not expect to get heroes anyway. By the way, I think this should be changed in the game and that's why it is one of my top requests in my wishlist that I posted last summer:
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=100067#p866319

So currently you can play the big scenario either in campaign mode or as an individual scenario. If you start the Barbarossa map from the campaign screen the version will be the default "realistic" and you will get heroes and awards. If you start it from the scenrio screen you can choose between the "moderate", "realistic" and "realistic+" versions and no heroes will be given. If you are playing the mod in campaign style after finishing the Mediterranean scenario you will be offered the same choice to decide which version of the big scenrio you intend to play and then you can of course play any version and get heroes as well.

This is something that I cannot change for it is hard coded in the game, hence my request in the wishlist. However, as a compensation for not getting heroes when playing in scenario mode all new purchased units will start with 50 experience points while in campaign mode they start with 0. Currently that's all I could do about it to make it a bit more fair.

I also reduced the number of kills that are required to get the first hero when played in campaign mode. In this mod Axis units can get the first hero anytime after they reach 30 kills but they surely get it before they reach 100. It is decided randomly by the game as with the dice rolls within this interval and it has nothing to do with how "good" they are in a given attack. The second hero can appear between 101 and 200 kills and the third between 201 and 500. But you can also read this and more in the "Changes" section of the in game "Library" which is recommended to be read in the very first message box. In the next version of the mod I will try to make the "Changes" section a bit more informative (providing that players read it ).

As for the various strategies, there are of course many ways to win or lose the war and it is intentional. There isn't only one good solution so that players can continue to experiment in repeated replays. And of course there is a built-in randomness so even if you do everything the same way the end result will never be exactly the same. Other than that now the AI can more or less react to most possible strategic decisions of the player. Most action is followed by an answere from the AI.

Neglecting the North African theatre is a valid option, but it will have its consequencies: the Western Allies will capture Tunis and that will trigger further invasions in the Mediterranean. The loss of Tunis also triggers the creation of the US 12th Air Force in North Africa which means more American heavy bombers and fighters attacking from the south from 1944. If Tunis is lost and if there is no opposition the AI units in North Africa will most likely continue to advance towards Tripoli and then Tobruk and then all the way to Alexandria, if the latter was captured by the player. When the AI units are set to be on the offensive they always move from one victory objective city to the next nearest. Unless they are set to move to a specific AI zone which may be the case sometimes. However, if there is a mass of water between the two they just stop on the coast and wait for a miracle so that they can cross it with dry feet. The AI is unable to embark units to sea or air transports, unless it is specifically scripted or ordered to do so. In this mod there is no such script as it would take too long for the AI to embark its units one by one for an invasion. Instead, major Allied invasion units are spawned in the middle of the sea en masse and then proceed to land at their designated beaches which are currently more or less the historical locations.