Slitherine

Granfali wrote:Well, we need to advance... What about this proposal guys?

Very good suggestions...

Granfali wrote:Artillery bonus: same bonus for both sides. 25 pdr (so we avoid -2 delay for germans and less HE for british)

Keep Arty the same. Brits need faster Arty to deal with German armour. I'll happily trade faster Arty for slightly weaker shells. Thanks for the kind offer, but no need to change. Honestly.

Granfali wrote:Typhoon: doubles its resistance AAVulnerable value in cards.txt changed from 50 to 100(?) Increase BombAPAttack from 80 to 100

Excellent proposal. Let's halve the vulnerability to 25% (so if you've got 2x 88s and a Wirbelwind, it's 3x25%=75% vulnerable; you'll still shoot down 3 in 4, but it's an improvement). Typhoon should be as effective as say a Panther (AP attack 273); let's push TyphoonAPAttack to 200? And reduce Typhoon delay from 3 to 2 so we can actually use the buggers; that would mean Typhoon could be used every 3-4 turns, so max 6 times per game (certainly, still much less than a squadron of Tigers, Panthers, or even PzIVs, but it's a massive improvement on before and getting closer to WW2 reality).

Granfali wrote:AT Infantry charges: Insert this bonus for all battles, with delay (Resupply Delay) 1, instead of current 2.

No need to change resupply delay. It's just that right now, no units have resupply. Just give resupply bonus to all A, H and M-morale BGs.

Granfali wrote:No HighMorale BGs (SS and Paras), all normal troops so... no bonus: revive, rally, sgtdrill.

This is generous of you, but keeping some elites makes it fun and varied. Let Allies keep 3 para brigades. Let Germans keep equivalent number of SS units too. Maybe 3x 30-men Waffen SS BGs vs 3x 20-men para BGs, assuming 1.5x reinforcement?

Alternative suggestion on Revive, Rally & Promote: These could be used like Arty... reserved for special battles where there is an "ace commander" effect. Let's make it possible for both Germans and Allies to nominate 2 BGs every turn. Nominated 2 BGs receive Revive, Rally & Promote bonuses. None of the others do... That would be fun, fair and strategic. What do you think?

Granfali wrote:Infantry durability: HE_Suppression halved for every infantry team. Suppression (not fire) when reach 0 (instead of 50), surrender when reach 150 (instead of 100) (with this change I look for more infantry duels, not the current "one second live, next second surrendered")

To be sure that I understand correctly, troops will only suppress below morale 0, and surrender below morale -50. That's a very clever idea! Can you restrict this so it only works for infantry. If you can, it's awesome. Please don't change the suppression/surrender of tanks though!

Skype was just a suggestion to make things go more smoothly than ping-pong email, but I already like many of your new ideas...

Guys what do you think?

I'm happy to get back to battle as Allies. Anyone else? Mike, I know you were really unhappy with your BdB result. Do you want to stay Allied? Or switch to German?

Jon, I would like to stay on Allies and finish this Campaign...and try and improve this very neat concept that G has created. I am alittle peaved about the battle, but oh well..it is what it is...Will have plenty more battles to fight. Plus, I think it will be easier for G to just play by himself, because it will be too hard to coordinate. I just want to get back to the fighting....
Mike

I'm good with all the suggestions...Lets continue as Allied.

As for the Infantry suppression...I think they will suppress (no fire) at 0 and surrender at -150

Let's get back in the fight!

Just wanted to say, we all appreciate the updates. Go guys (and kudos to grenfali for starting this)

GottaLove88s wrote:

Granfali wrote:Artillery bonus: same bonus for both sides. 25 pdr (so we avoid -2 delay for germans and less HE for british)

Keep Arty the same. Brits need faster Arty to deal with German armour. I'll happily trade faster Arty for slightly weaker shells. Thanks for the kind offer, but no need to change. Honestly.

Yes, of course, I can understand british artillery has -1 turn delay, but why germans have -2??? That mean that artillery only can be used for static troops because with that delay, even infantry walking out easily from artillery radius. It is a necessary change.

Granfali wrote:Typhoon: doubles its resistance AAVulnerable value in cards.txt changed from 50 to 100(?) Increase BombAPAttack from 80 to 100

Excellent proposal. Let's halve the vulnerability to 25% (so if you've got 2x 88s and a Wirbelwind, it's 3x25%=75% vulnerable; you'll still shoot down 3 in 4, but it's an improvement). Typhoon should be as effective as say a Panther (AP attack 273); let's push TyphoonAPAttack to 200? And reduce Typhoon delay from 3 to 2 so we can actually use the buggers; that would mean Typhoon could be used every 3-4 turns, so max 6 times per game (certainly, still much less than a squadron of Tigers, Panthers, or even PzIVs, but it's a massive improvement on before and getting closer to WW2 reality).

a)Do you mean every AA weapon in range to the typhoon objetive adds 25%?
b)Don't understand very well how is the air-armor attack works. Can you explain please?

Granfali wrote:AT Infantry charges: Insert this bonus for all battles, with delay (Resupply Delay) 1, instead of current 2.

No need to change resupply delay. It's just that right now, no units have resupply. Just give resupply bonus to all A, H and M-morale BGs.

That was I meant Insert resupply for all BG (for all battles)... it is very easy to change delay, so better to have 1 turn, not 2. If not necessary we don't use them...

Granfali wrote:No HighMorale BGs (SS and Paras), all normal troops so... no bonus: revive, rally, sgtdrill.

This is generous of you, but keeping some elites makes it fun and varied. Let Allies keep 3 para brigades. Let Germans keep equivalent number of SS units, probably in 3-4 BGs, assuming Allies reinforce x1.5.Alternative suggestion on Revive, Rally & Promote: These could be used like Arty... reserved for special battles where there is an "ace commander" impact. Let's make it possible for both Germans and Allies to nominate 2 BGs every turn. The nominated 2 BGs get Revive, Rally & Promote. None of the others do... That would be cool, no? Fair, strategic, fun too.

Hmmm, I like the second (alternative), we can nominate 2 BGs per turn to have those three bonuses. By default none BG has it so... High morale, low morale, medium morale concept dissapears.

Granfali wrote:Infantry durability: HE_Suppression halved for every infantry team. Suppression (not fire) when reach 0 (instead of 50), surrender when reach 150 (instead of 100) (with this change I look for more infantry duels, not the current "one second live, next second surrendered")

To be sure that I understand correctly, troops will only suppress below morale 0, and surrender below morale 50. That's a very clever idea! Can you restrict this so it only works for infantry. If you can, it's awesome. Please don't change the suppression/surrender of tanks though.

Sorry, I can not restrict it only for infantry, had to be for all units, at least something can do it only for infantry.

Hey Granfali! Great to speak with you this evening. It's nice to hear the voice of the genius that has created this thing.

Ok, looks like between us we have some good solutions and a few questions... I'm going to try to answer each question separately (to keep the answers clear and simple)... And then I'll provide a final summation of where I think we're at, to get cracking again...

Granfali wrote:

GottaLove88s wrote:

Granfali wrote:Artillery bonus: same bonus for both sides. 25 pdr (so we avoid -2 delay for germans and less HE for british)

Keep Arty the same. Brits need faster Arty to deal with German armour. I'll happily trade faster Arty for slightly weaker shells. Thanks for the kind offer, but no need to change. Honestly.

Yes, of course, I can understand british artillery has -1 turn delay, but why germans have -2??? That mean that artillery only can be used for static troops because with that delay, even infantry walking out easily from artillery radius. It is a necessary change.

1st. Arty - I see your point G. You'd like to make Artillery Bombardment the same for both sides. I don't know for sure, but I suspect that BA might have given the Allies a timing advantage in Arty because the Germans have such a big advantage in tanks. But I'm ok to make Arty the same for both sides, to try it and see how it works out (so long as we balance with effective Typhoons below).

Proposed solution
Ok, to make Arty more fair, let's make all Arty the same as German Arty. We all get stronger effect and 2 turn delay. The 2 turn delay keeps it strategic, and hit and miss, for everyone. I'm sure the guys will agree?

Granfali wrote:Typhoon: doubles its resistance AAVulnerable value in cards.txt changed from 50 to 100(?) Increase BombAPAttack from 80 to 100

GottaLove88s wrote:Excellent proposal. Let's halve the vulnerability to 25% (so if you've got 2x 88s and a Wirbelwind, it's 3x25%=75% vulnerable; you'll still shoot down 3 in 4, but it's an improvement). Typhoon should be as effective as say a Panther (AP attack 273); let's push TyphoonAPAttack to 200? And reduce Typhoon delay from 3 to 2 so we can actually use the buggers; that would mean Typhoon could be used every 3-4 turns, so max 6 times per game (certainly, still much less than a squadron of Tigers, Panthers, or even PzIVs, but it's a massive improvement on before and getting closer to WW2 reality).

Granfali wrote:a)Do you mean every AA weapon in range to the typhoon objetive adds 25%?
b)Don't understand very well how is the air-armor attack works. Can you explain please?

2nd. AA and Typhoons - Better described here -> viewtopic.php?f=104&t=37899#p355750
If I understand correctly, each AA unit on the map has an AAValue (from squads.csv). BA adds all of these up, so 35% for each 88, 50% for each Wirbelwind, to a maximum of 90%. Then it multiplies that by the AAVulnerability of the aircraft, eg. 50% for a Typhoon. So in this example, an 88 and a Wirbelwind would have (35%+50%)85% x 50% = 42.5% chance of shooting down a Typhoon. So if delay is 3 and it take a turn to use, we get 4 Typhoons per game, 2 of those will be shot down, on average.

Proposed Solutions:
1. Let's reduce Typhoon AAVulnerability to 25% (so the few that we have are harder to shoot down).
2. Let's reduce Typhoon delay from 3 to 2 (so we get 6 per game rather than 4).
3. Let's make the impact of a Typhoon about 2/3 the impact of one shot from a Panther (raise APAttack to 200, vs Panther at 273)

Granfali wrote:AT Infantry charges: Insert this bonus for all battles, with delay (Resupply Delay) 1, instead of current 2.

GottaLove88s wrote:No need to change resupply delay. It's just that right now, no units have resupply. Just give resupply bonus to all A, H and M-morale BGs.

Granfali wrote:That was I meant Insert resupply for all BG (for all battles)... it is very easy to change delay, so better to have 1 turn, not 2. If not necessary we don't use them...

3rd. Resupply bonuses
Proposed solution
I'm sure that we're saying the same thing, so AGREED. Let's just give resupply bonus to all BGs. It doesn't really matter whether the recharge is 1 or 2, but I'm happy to leave it at 2, so that it doesn't come all the time.

Granfali wrote:No HighMorale BGs (SS and Paras), all normal troops so... no bonus: revive, rally, sgtdrill.

GottaLove88s wrote:This is generous of you, but keeping some elites makes it fun and varied. Let Allies keep 3 para brigades. Let Germans keep equivalent number of SS units, probably in 3-4 BGs, assuming Allies reinforce x1.5.Alternative suggestion on Revive, Rally & Promote: These could be used like Arty... reserved for special battles where there is an "ace commander" impact. Let's make it possible for both Germans and Allies to nominate 2 BGs every turn. The nominated 2 BGs get Revive, Rally & Promote. None of the others do... That would be cool, no? Fair, strategic, fun too.

Granfali wrote:Hmmm, I like the second (alternative), we can nominate 2 BGs per turn to have those three bonuses. By default none BG has it so... High morale, low morale, medium morale concept dissapears.

4th. Morale, elites and bonuses
Proposed solutions
1. Keep Brit elites -> 3/6, 5/6, 6AL/6 remain as para BGs
2. Keep 3 German elites -> 25/12SS, 26/12SS, and 20/10SS stay Waffen SS (so Germans have 1.5x to take account of Brit reinforcement)
3. Switch I/12/12SS, II/12/12SS, 101SPzAbt and 20/9SS from Waffen SS back to regular German infantry (then makes all other infantry equal)
4. TOTALLY AGREE about adding each team to nominate 2 BGs per turn to receive the 3 bonuses (Medic+Rally+Promote). It will highlight battles we "need" to win, or where we feel most at risk. Let's do it!

Granfali wrote:Infantry durability: HE_Suppression halved for every infantry team. Suppression (not fire) when reach 0 (instead of 50), surrender when reach 150 (instead of 100) (with this change I look for more infantry duels, not the current "one second live, next second surrendered")

GottaLove88s wrote:To be sure that I understand correctly, troops will only suppress below morale 0, and surrender below morale 50. That's a very clever idea! Can you restrict this so it only works for infantry. If you can, it's awesome. Please don't change the suppression/surrender of tanks though.

Granfali wrote:Sorry, I can not restrict it only for infantry, had to be for all units, at least something can do it only for infantry.

5th. Making infantry tougher
We all like the idea of making infantry tougher; frankly they're pretty lame, and since Allies have so many of them, it's a pain.
However, we need to make sure that we understand you G... Are you saying that you can't make only infantry tougher; that if you make infantry tougher, then you must also make tanks (and everything else) tougher too?

Proposed solutions
1. We would say, yes please make infantry tougher, if you can make only infantry tougher. Under no circumstances, make tanks even more difficult to kill. They're going to kick our butts as it is. Making tanks harder to suppress/kill is a very bad idea.
2. Increase the AP accuracy of Piats... Right now AP accuracy for PzShrek is 150 for 1-space, 100 for 2-space; in contrast, the AP accuracy for Piat is 150 for 1-space, 80 for 2-spaces... Bump that up for both Piats and PzShreks to 150 and 125... Make the APAttack the same as PzShrek. Will make it harder for tanks to hide just one space away.
3. Not sure what to do about regular infantry, if it will make tanks harder too, so I'd say let's make Piats more equal, and see how it works out?

So, in summary, without the detailed explanations... here's what I think we've agreed.

1st. Arty - Make all Arty the same as Germany Arty - Keeps it strategic. Now we all need an element of intel and an element of luck.
2nd. Typhoons - Reduce AAVulnerability, reduce delay, increase APAttack - These are an important way for Allies to interrupt German heavy tanks, so let's make it possible for them to achieve something.
3rd. Resupply - All BGs get resupply for every game, with normal 2 turn delay.
4th. Morale, elites & bonuses - Permit Allies & Germans to keep similar numbers of elite infantry, after reinforcement. The 3 bonuses are now nominated to 2 BGs every turn.
5th. Tougher units - Make infantry tougher, only if we can make just infantry tougher. If this change makes tanks tougher, DON'T DO IT! Since we're making Brit and German Arty the same, let's make Brit Piat equal to German PzShrek too.

ESTAMOS DE ACUERDO? Creo que si!
Now let's see the latest map and let's play...
Ahem, btw Mike is still complaining that he could have won BdB if he didn't end it prematurely (just passing on what he's screaming in our ears )

Well....I could have...lol. I'll let it go..
Now Lets Play Already...Are we going to get started for the weekend? I have all day today...so let's do this..

GottaLove88s wrote: Artillery
Proposed solution
Ok, to make Arty more fair, let's make all Arty the same as German Arty. We all get stronger effect and 2 turn delay. The 2 turn delay keeps it strategic, and hit and miss, for everyone. I'm sure the guys will agree?

Agree. Locked!!!

GottaLove88s wrote:3rd. Resupply bonuses
Proposed solution
I'm sure that we're saying the same thing, so AGREED. Let's just give resupply bonus to all BGs. It doesn't really matter whether the recharge is 1 or 2, but I'm happy to leave it at 2, so that it doesn't come all the time.

Locked!!!

GottaLove88s wrote: 4th. Morale, elites and bonuses
Proposed solutions
1. Keep Brit elites -> 3/6, 5/6, 6AL/6 remain as para BGs
2. Keep 3 German elites -> 25/12SS, 26/12SS, and 20/10SS stay Waffen SS (so Germans have 1.5x to take account of Brit reinforcement)
3. Switch I/12/12SS, II/12/12SS, 101SPzAbt and 20/9SS from Waffen SS back to regular German infantry (then makes all other infantry equal)
4. TOTALLY AGREE about adding each team to nominate 2 BGs per turn to receive the 3 bonuses (Medic+Rally+Promote). It will highlight battles we "need" to win, or where we feel most at risk. Let's do it!

Locked!!!

GottaLove88s wrote:2nd. AA and Typhoons
Proposed Solutions:
1. Let's reduce Typhoon AAVulnerability to 25% (so the few that we have are harder to shoot down).
2. Let's reduce Typhoon delay from 3 to 2 (so we get 6 per game rather than 4).
3. Let's make the impact of a Typhoon about 2/3 the impact of one shot from a Panther (raise APAttack to 200, vs Panther at 273)

1. Will be very difficult to down a single plane, in the better case, AA=90 (capped): 90x(25%)=22.5, that means 22.5% to down ... but accept. Locked!!
2. Locked !!!
3. Impossible to give Typhoon 200 John!!! I made some test, with 200 every single hit is a casuality, and if another tank is adyacent is easily killed too... Planes have two attacks in every dive: APAttack and BombAPattack. So it doubles the kill capacity. I made test with 120 APAttack and 80 BombAPattack, over 18 divings:

(destroyed vehicles/attacks done) - % of kill

Stugs: 10/18 - 55%
Panthers: 10/18 - 55%
Tigers: 5/18 - 27%
PzIV: 12/18 - 66%

I have the scenario to test, if you want I can send you and compare results. I think they are a more than decent results. It gives, thinking that one plane is down, five attacks: two-three stugs or panthers destroyed, one-two tigers and three-four PzIV. Not mentioned 251/9, marders, and others soft armors, that every hit is 100% KIA.

If we finally drop infantry suppression to 0 we should double suppresion value for plane attack.

It surprised me how easy was destroy a panther with typhoon... is the side/rear value token to calculate the penetration??? It makes sense that Tiger endure so good!!

Granfali wrote:

GottaLove88s wrote:2nd. AA and Typhoons
Proposed Solutions:
1. Let's reduce Typhoon AAVulnerability to 25% (so the few that we have are harder to shoot down).
2. Let's reduce Typhoon delay from 3 to 2 (so we get 6 per game rather than 4).
3. Let's make the impact of a Typhoon about 2/3 the impact of one shot from a Panther (raise APAttack to 200, vs Panther at 273)

1. Will be very difficult to down a single plane, in the better case, AA=90 (capped): 90x(25%)=22.5, that means 22.5% to down ... but accept. Locked!!
2. Locked !!!
3. Impossible to give Typhoon 200 John!!! I made some test, with 200 every single hit is a casuality, and if another tank is adyacent is easily killed too... Planes have two attacks in every dive: APAttack and BombAPattack. So it doubles the kill capacity. I made test with 120 APAttack and 80 BombAPattack, over 18 divings:

(destroyed vehicles/attacks done) - % of kill

Stugs: 10/18 - 55%
Panthers: 10/18 - 55%
Tigers: 5/18 - 27%
PzIV: 12/18 - 66%

I have the scenario to test, if you want I can send you and compare results. I think they are a more than decent results. It gives, thinking that one plane is down, five attacks: two-three stugs or panthers destroyed, one-two tigers and three-four PzIV. Not mentioned 251/9, marders, and others soft armors, that every hit is 100% KIA.

If we finally drop infantry suppression to 0 we should double suppresion value for plane attack.

It surprised me how easy was destroy a panther with typhoon... is the side/rear value token to calculate the penetration??? It makes sense that Tiger endure so good!!

Hmm... I feel your hesitation to give us a more balanced Typhoon, Granfali, but consider it this way...
(i) Arty - Brits had an Arty advantage of waiting 1 turn, vs Germans waiting 2... But we've decided to give away this advantage, to help the Germans.
(iii) Resupply - We've agreed to add this to both sides.
(iv) Morale, Elites & Bonuses - we've agreed to make this exactly equal for both sides, from being very biased to Germans.

If we can only use Typhoon 5-6 times PER GAME.
By your statistics, you will shoot down 1-2 of those.
So only 3-5 Typhoons will hit a target.
At a 27% kill rate, those 3-5 Typhoons might kill zero or one Tigers PER GAME.
At a 55% kill rate, those 3-5 Typhoons might kill 1-3 Panthers PER GAME.

In contrast, if you run a test of a 20 unit Firefly BG vs. a 20 unit Panther PG you get the result in the next post.
I would suggest, if you want to be fair, please test:
1. How many times will a Panther kill a Sherman at 4 spaces away, front to front? (what's the %)
2. How many times will a Sherman kill a Panther at 4 spaces away, front to front? (what's the %)
That's the difference that we need to make up with our 3-5 Typhoons PER GAME.

We only had one advantage in all of GJS, in Arty, and we've just given that up... so we're really sunk with no advantages anywhere... and big disadvantages still versus tanks...

Granfali, I understand your reluctance to give us a Typhoon advantage after we give you back our Arty advantage. But, of course, it's disappointing.

Let me explain as a real world Lebisey result. Here is the result of a 20 unit Firefly-led BG vs a 20 unit Panther-led BG.
The Firefly-player played much better, much smarter; the Panther-player made lots of stupid moves (I know, it was me, lol).

But the Firefly-player is about to be dissolved, has lost 19 units.
The Panther-player has 11 turns left to take the last enemy unit, or one more flag, with 16 units left to use...

That's an important statistic to test if we want to make GJS fair/fun for both sides:
What is the chance of making a kill/surviving an attack with a Panther?
Versus what is the chance of making a kill/surviving an attack with a Sherman?

Against that statistic, will 3-5 Typhoons really make a difference if they're capped to kill/injure only 1-in-2 or 1-in-4?

This one game tells me that a Panther team can easily dissolve even an extremely well-played Firefly player...
Will German players really enjoy games that are so easy to win? I wouldn't... I'd feel guilty, like I'd just stolen a baby's ice-cream, lol...

Let me put it simply...

We're helping the Germans to get more effective Artillery (if you read our offer, this was conditional on getting effective Typhoons in exchange).
Infantry and bonuses are being matched equally (although Germans still have better tanks, far more ATGs and better pzshreks)...

But, so far, the Allies have got nothing that improves their effectiveness... so this won't make GJS more balanced for the Allies...

You don't want Allies to always lose versus German heavy tank BGs do you? That will be boring for both sides... But without effective tanks (I know you won't give us that) or effective Typhoons (you might give us that if you consider that it's only 3-5 Typhoons PER GAME versus 6-8 Panthers PER TURN FOR 20 TURNS)... the results will look pretty much like those above... Allies will lose 20 units versus Germans will lose 4, if the Germans don't concentrate, lol...