Slitherine

ColonelY wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:48 pm

CoolDTA wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 5:58 pm I certainly wouldn't introduce Soviet paratroopers in the Winter War based on any of those sources. It would be pure fantasy.

Pure fantasy? Not sure at all about that; and it's sometimes difficult to find really precise sources... the main problem here, somehow, is that they were not large-scale operations involving thousands of men. The smaller the operation, the more difficult it can be to find records about it.

Paratroopers have been involved. How exactly, this is another point.

Maybe some book will talk about them? But anyway, one knows that it's not just because it's written somewhere that it's true, as well as the fact that the history is often written by the winners, etc. What is a real proof anyway or, better, what would be considered as such?

Yes, pure fantasy. You gave no credible sources and if you read the axishistory link, the guys there were very suspicious and for good reason. Winter War is very well documented.

I told already that two airborne brigades were used but just as regular rifle infantry. That was their historical use.

If you have any evidence on the contrary, please provide it.

The Soviet troops used in the Petsamo area consisted of the 14th Army and were as follows:

104th Mountain Rifle Division
13th Rifle Division
52nd Rifle Division
290th artillery regiment
158th artillery regiment
208th howitzer regiment
241st howitzer regiment
104th cannon artillery regiment
33rd anti-aircraft artillery division
+ 38 light tanks

An online source for these: http://militera.lib.ru/h/shirokorad1/9_03.html.

bru888 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:07 pm By the way, you should find this campaign more to your liking - smaller maps, less units - so if you are of a mind to, you can download it from the beta thread in the General Forum.

Thanks, I will do that definitely. Really looking forward to this one, as well as the follow up campaign(s). Great work guys!

But to play it, I want to update my mod first - esp. some overhaul of the Finnish unit roster (as far as possible) would be in order, I guess.
(Sorry, I'm still stuck with BattleTech. The latest updates added some nice variants and options and I decided to start a new campaign)

GabeKnight wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:10 pm (Sorry, I'm still stuck with BattleTech. The latest updates added some nice variants and options and I decided to start a new campaign)

Would you recommended it for someone who likes turn-based strategy games? It seems I can no longer play OoB simply because too much is too much.

Erik2 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:25 pm We are probably getting a bit ahead of ourselves, but these are the scenarios planned and done pre-Bru treatment.

pre-Bru treatment Nice term.

I was about to ask what is this "Makinen" because it is not a location. But I found the... source so now I know. Looks like the first three are around the same area on Raate Road.

CoolDTA wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:14 pm Would you recommended it for someone who likes turn-based strategy games? It seems I can no longer play OoB simply because too much is too much.

[small size due to off-topic posts]
You'll come around eventually - at least I believe that. Everybody needs a break sometimes, even if the break may take a year or so.

As for BattleTech, I would definitely recommend it NOW; that is, if you don't mind the Sci-Fi setting of the game. Many bugs and balance issues have been sorted out and with the new 'Mech variants, weapons and (finally) mod support, they have quite a satisfying, rounded up game by now. (But I think you'll need all DLCs for that - sorry, I'm not sure how ownership of the DLCs may restrict 'Mech usage in the game). I really love the aspect of building/balancing your 'Mech to your own needs and fighting style - I think that's the strong suit of the game. Heavy armored close-range brawler or long-range snipers, fast and hard-to-hit scouts with light weaponry or slow siege-tower-types ("Steiner Scout Lance" ) - choose/build your squad to your liking.
But it's also Unity engine, meaning long loading times that'll get longer and loooooonger...

GabeKnight wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:43 pm You'll come around eventually - at least I believe that. Everybody needs a break sometimes, even if the break may take a year or so.

As for BattleTech, I would definitely recommend it NOW; that is, if you don't mind the Sci-Fi setting of the game. Many bugs and balance issues have been sorted out and with the new 'Mech variants, weapons and (finally) mod support, they have quite a satisfying, rounded up game by now. (But I think you'll need all DLCs for that - sorry, I'm not sure how ownership of the DLCs may restrict 'Mech usage in the game). I really love the aspect of building/balancing your 'Mech to your own needs and fighting style - I think that's the strong suit of the game. Heavy armored close-range brawler or long-range snipers, fast and hard-to-hit scouts with light weaponry or slow siege-tower-types ("Steiner Scout Lance" ) - choose/build your squad to your liking.
But it's also Unity engine, meaning long loading times that'll get longer and loooooonger...

Yeah, Unity feature that one. SciFi setting is definitely ok just like for instance fantasy setting would be. So Mercenary Collection or base + season pass is the recommended choice? Only base is just so much cheaper... Thank you very much for the info!

Re. OoB: you are probably right.

@Bru

Looks like this map would be the one for the first three scens. Though Raate Road is very generic title and I don't know how much of it needs to be covered.

JR = Infantry Regiment
SissiP. = Sissi Battalion (light infantry)
Er.Ps.P- = Independent Tank Battalion
Pst.Psto = AT Battery
Kev.Os. = Light Detachment

CoolDTA wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 7:04 pm The Soviet troops used in the Petsamo area consisted of the 14th Army and were as follows:

104th Mountain Rifle Division
13th Rifle Division
52nd Rifle Division
290th artillery regiment
158th artillery regiment
208th howitzer regiment
241st howitzer regiment
104th cannon artillery regiment
33rd anti-aircraft artillery division
+ 38 light tanks

An online source for these: http://militera.lib.ru/h/shirokorad1/9_03.html.

Thanks for this source, it's really easy to read!

In your list, there are divisions and regiments, so only/mainly the MAIN units, the big-sized ones... It's precisely what I've written before: it's much easier for the biggest ones!

So, to stay honest, I don't have much more "evidence" about the presence of those paratroopers, which should in principle have been there LESS THAN A HUNDRED, SO NOTHING COMPARED TO the more than 52'000 men of the three soviet divisions... May just that (latest point) explain this? But, if one would like to play little gamies (althought I'll become quickly sick of this kind of things), how could we prove that there was NO paratrooper AT ALL?
(One could also philosophize about the notion of proof, but it doesn't really matter here actually...)

Oh, and by the way: your source takes for certain that the 13th Rifle Division was involved (together with the 104th and the 52nd)... one could be surprised to see that others sources ensure that the 14th Rifle Division was there instead of this 13th Rifle Division (still together with the two others).

Just take a look here for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Petsamo_(1939) or, if you prefer a russian version of it, here https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%91%D0 ... 0%BC%D0%BE (with some references to books as well if one wishes to read more in russian)... Or, for example, here as well it is question of the 14th instead of the 13th: https://www.talvisota.fi/en/battles/lap ... 2%88%9240/ (then click on the "read more", of course!)...

So, was there the 13th or the 14th Rifle Division? It's not that easy, as one can see. And we were here only talking from A WHOLE DIVISION (or two actually ), and not about just few groups of men...

So, is all this "pure fantasy" as well? To be categorical too quickly may be the best way to take the risk of being wrong, mayn't it?

Back to our paratroopers, shall we?

From a strictly logical point of view, if one accepts the presence of such paratroopers units, the political interest behind it, as well as the fact that they have already been able to participate in military exercises in conjunction with standard troops...why on earth wouldn't they have been used?


I just shared some of the information I found in order to help; that's all! Thanks

Relax, guys. I will go through the sources that the Colonel provided and if feasible I will work Russian paratroopers in, subtly, believably, but perhaps with a dash of designer's license such as was applied to the couple of scenarios in which foreign volunteers appeared. Who knows what battles those men actually took part in? And does it really matter, as long as they were real and are in here just as a bit of flavoring? My approach will be sound, I think. For example, I think one of you mentioned that there were no actual paratroop drops during this first war, so I will probably follow history by having paratroopers appear on foot as described. We will see.

ColonelY wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:18 pm Thanks for this source, it's really easy to read!

Happy to be of service.

ColonelY wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:18 pm Oh, and by the way: your source takes for certain that the 13th Rifle Division was involved (together with the 104th and the 52nd)... one could be surprised to see that others sources ensure that the 14th Rifle Division was there instead of this 13th Rifle Division (still together with the two others).

That's a good point. I only used that source because it was quick to find and online. The correct division is the 14th as can be found in various Finnish sources and of course also in those links you provided.

ColonelY wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:18 pm Back to our paratroopers, shall we?

From a logical point of view, if one accepts the presence of such parachute units, the political interest behind it, as well as the fact that they have already been able to participate in military exercises in conjunction with standard troops...why on earth wouldn't they have been used?

Using this kind of "logic" it could be argued that any (Soviet) unit in existence in Dec 1939 was used in Winter War even though there is no evidence proving that being the case. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. Like I said, please provide evidence on the contrary if it exists.

Regarding paratroops in the upcoming WW 1940 campaign, I gave earlier a possible scenario (which is not too far fetched) to use them.

bru888 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:48 pm Relax, guys. I will go through the sources that the Colonel provided and if feasible I will work Russian paratroopers in, subtly, believably, but perhaps with a dash of designer's license such as was applied to the couple of scenarios in which foreign volunteers appeared. Who knows what battles those men actually took part in? And does it really matter, as long as they were real and are in here just as a bit of flavoring? My approach will be sound, I think. For example, I think one of you mentioned that there were no actual paratroop drops during this first war, so I will probably follow history by having paratroopers appear on foot as described. We will see.

Sorry, Bru. It is just that back in the old days such wild claims without any supporting evidence were not even presented (at least by the regular members) on quality boards. Then some new guy came to pay a visit and did just that. It resulted to what you just witnessed. It was and is very tiresome. I didn't need it then and not now, so if you like, I'm happy to leave.

Regarding the Paratroopers: did you read my suggestion for their possible use as an airborne unit?

With this "kind" of logic... Huhem... Again, not sure at all: it would depend among others on the depth of this political interest, which seems in this case to have been pretty huge… far greater at least than for any other common and classical unit. All's relative! But, anyway:

bru888 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:48 pm Relax, guys. [...] And does it really matter, as long as they were real and are in here just as a bit of flavoring?

Perfectly right!

bru888 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:48 pm [...] so I will probably follow history [...]

Well, that was the point, precisely!

Phew, at least some paratroopers will be involved, that’s already something!

I trust you to make it both plausible and enjoyable.

Oh, and maybe a last idea related to all this:
These few paratroopers could begin already deployed on the ground, that's fine, but then I suggest on an advanced or flanking position, as from one of the sides of the map!
Indeed, like this no one playing the scenario will know whether they have actually come here by foot or using their advantage, so each one can figure it out the way he likes/wishes it, and anyone will be happy about it, and that’s it once and for all!

CoolDTA wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 10:02 pm

bru888 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 25, 2020 9:48 pm Relax, guys. I will go through the sources that the Colonel provided and if feasible I will work Russian paratroopers in, subtly, believably, but perhaps with a dash of designer's license such as was applied to the couple of scenarios in which foreign volunteers appeared. Who knows what battles those men actually took part in? And does it really matter, as long as they were real and are in here just as a bit of flavoring? My approach will be sound, I think. For example, I think one of you mentioned that there were no actual paratroop drops during this first war, so I will probably follow history by having paratroopers appear on foot as described. We will see.

Sorry, Bru. It is just that back in the old days such wild claims without any supporting evidence were not even presented (at least by the regular members) on quality boards. Then some new guy came to pay a visit and did just that. It resulted to what you just witnessed. It was and is very tiresome. I didn't need it then and not now, so if you like, I'm happy to leave.

Regarding the Paratroopers: did you read my suggestion for their possible use as an airborne unit?

No worries, Cool. You stick around. Regarding the paratroopers, like I said, I will read through the sources and make a hopefully sound judgement as to how to use them.

That said, @Gabe and @Cool, why youse guys! What's with the tiny font shenanigans? You realize the eyestrain I went through to read that with a magnifying glass? (Just kidding; I know how to copy and paste. I might look into that game myself, but you guys stay involved here, will you? )

Thanks, Bru. As always I appreciate how you run things around here and truly keep up a friendly atmosphere.

Now I’m just wondering WHEN the Russian Ski Troops have appeared and whether they could have really taken part in the Winter War or not.

It may again not be that easy to find out reliable information about this point*…

This could explain why OoB contains Italien Alpini, French Chasseurs Alpins and, of course, Finnish Ski Troops, but no “Russian Ski Troops” at all!

At least we know for sure that the Soviets had some Ski Troops:

For example, there is the perhaps somewhat romanticized story of the Siberian Piotr Balakov (who was a bear hunter in Siberia before the war). Piotr, on his skis and despite a German bullet in the hip, sealed the fate of Captain Schultz's entire assault company encircled in the Russian village of Bitzny – who knows still about this? (Winter 42-43; based on the history reconstructed from the logbooks of veterans of the war in the East and also, in this case, of the few survivors such as Lieutenant Gröber; “La compagnie perdue”, Kurt Gerwitz, série Guerre n° 215, Editions du Gerfaut, 1973, Paris.)

Anyway, in the Battle of Moscow (November 1941), the presence of eleven Soviet Ski Battalions is attested… But the Russians should have had at least 18 Battalions of these guys. (Sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ski_warfare & https://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=37 )


*In the Winter War directly, the Soviet 54th Division was supposed to have massed the first deployment of Soviet ski troops… maybe precisely to counter the Finnish ones? But this doesn’t seem to appear in the “classical” unit list of this Division, again maybe because it was still somehow a too small unit? So maybe just an unit incorporated into a bigger one and thus like a "ghost" now to our radars, if I may say so...

Furthermore, there are traces (even in books) of the existence of a “Siberian Ski Brigade” of about 2’000 men; many of these guys are believed to have been slaughtered by the Finnish Ski troops…


If one can prove enough the existence of this Siberian Ski Brigade in the Winter War, what about adding it in this Finland campaign (if possible, of course)?

Free France campaign:

This one would be somehow challenging to develop amongst others because it is (again! ) rather difficult to gather information about the units opposed to the British and Free French at the beginning of the campaign…

For the Free France units themselves (and their Allies), it’s much easier , even if sometimes different sources say that there was this cruiser involved instead of that one, or few things like this – but it’s in principle not that much.

I’ve read few times the three books entitled “Mémoires de guerre” and written by Général De Gaulle (who has played a crucial role in all this!)… so, it should definitely be possible to find some good and reliable information about this Free France campaign, for sure!

But some adaptation will anyway be required. An simple example? There it is:

The British had brought, among of course many other ships, a carrier in front of Dakar: the Ark Royal. It was then carrying some Swordfish bombers (that’s fine for OoB) AND as fighters some old Blackburn Skua… And these planes are NOT in OoB right now!
So, what shall one do about it?
1. Give up this whole campaign? It would be such a pity!
2. Add this unit, making thus a mod? This is an option, but it may be a little difficule to handle the 3D-models part of it and, for example, the CSD Studio works now without mods…
3. Or simply replace these planes with the closest ones available in the game?

I would vote for this last option!


Well, for me, we do the best we can with the means at our disposal (game possibilities, historical documents, etc.), we stay within the realm of plausibility for everything else... and we keep the fun of playing, the enjoyability!
And that's all.
At least, that's my conception of this game and of the development of the campaigns...

For the little anecdote, the Free French piloted themselves two “Luciole touring” aircraft who took off from the carrier Ark Royal in order to throw leaflets of sympathy to the defenders of Dakar inviting them to join them…

A lot of fun and historical anecdotes awaits us within such a campaign!

ColonelY wrote: ↑Wed Feb 26, 2020 3:52 pm Now I’m just wondering WHEN the Russian Ski Troops have appeared and whether they could have really taken part in the Winter War or not.

It may again not be that easy to find out reliable information about this point*…

Sigh

No, it is not at all difficult. If a unit was used, rest assured it is mentioned in Finnish sources. It helps if you can read Finnish, but much is translated in English also.

See in the map below Col. Dolin's Ski Brigade skiing to their death:



And yes, there's even a book (in Finnish of course):



That's bloody 440 pages of the subject. Haven't read it.

I agree, OoB should have Soviet Ski Troops.

Wonderful, thanks for these info!

Cool, thanks for these maps. Four so far? They will help with this Winter War 1940 campaign and Continuation War, despite the dates of action. It's the place names and their geographic relationships to each other that I am looking for, as well as troop movements.