Slitherine

Well we're still awaiting the results of D v ID so we may have time to resolve this.

Whilst I can appreciate Awesume's argument I still think that if you've won, but incurred a large number of casaulties, even with picking up the opponents baggage, deserters, etc, you've still got to incorporate them into your forces, reorganise and retrain, and as it appears that we can't reflect this by imposing penalties in troop quality, losing your movemenmt for a turn appears the only easily managed answer.

I don't like the idea of comparing % difference in casualties as it still means that a battle could end 60% v 59% and the victor would suffer no penalty even though they've lost over 1/2 their army. Even with capturing artillery and deserters is still going to require a lot of recruits and retraining.

I do like W's idea of the amount of penatly being relevant to the number of casaulties incurred, but I'm wondering if that may get too complicate (GDod, your best placed to answer that one!)

For simplicity then what about.

- A losing army has to remain stationary for a turn (they have suffered at least 40% casualties and would have been forced to retire so reflects the rebuilding of that force)
- A winning army that suffers 35% casualties or more also has to remain stationary for a turn (so for most battles it would be the same as having a % difference in casualties of less than 25%, and as Awesume said, reflects the 'relative' ease of reforming having captured both men and materiel; but also reflects that in those close fought bloody battles the losses cannot be made up as easily or quickly)
- In the case of a draw either army that suffered 35% casaulties or more would have to remain stationary for a turn (to reflect that although they haven't lost their baggage, artillery and deserters, they haven't gained any either)

These rules would not apply to reinforcing armies as the reinforcement is never going to amount 35% of the parent army.

This I feel would not only penalise a defeat (although it must be remembered that although they lose their movement they would still get the defensive advantage if attacked), but also rewards resounding victories.

I am currently in Surrey.
I just want to confirm: Is London part of Surrey, or is it a separate location?
Ulysisgrunt

Ulysisgrunt wrote:I am currently in Surrey.
I just want to confirm: Is London part of Surrey, or is it a separate location?
Ulysisgrunt

London is in the county of Greater London (in the real world).

In this campaign it is both it's own seperate county and forms Division I, " London does not have a number it is just London and as a district entitles the occupier to an extra 50 pts (plus district bonus of 100 points)"

Considering your viewpoints and since to loose must normally result in a over 40% loss. I propose the following

a) if you lost and your losses were 50% or more then the army must remain stationary
b) if you lost and the losses were under 50% then the army can only move one county and no flying column is possible
c) if you won and the losses were 50% or more then the army can only move one county and no flying column is possible


Again, I don't want to slow the game for people so everyone is sitting doing nothing for a whole season...and this simplified methodology still disadvantages any force who suffers horrendous loss but also results in an increased penalty for loosing a battle with significant loss. I think only the % losses are really the issue?

We could complicate it further by incorporating awesum's observation of loss of baggage and art. by adding that a losing army cannot use artillery if engaged in the following season. I don't see this as too much of a complication and would offset the advantage of the defended battle on the subsequent turn if attacked again.

Are these coming in for this turn, or next? No-one's moved as we're still awaiting 1 battle result, but I don't know if any of those pesky Rebels have submitted their turns yet.

If the rule is "the army can only move one county and no flying column is possible", you don't really have to specify that a flying column is not possible. Let them use a flying column, but it still can't move more than one county.

Also, Light Artillery is mandatory in the Scots Covenanter army. I worry that someone (OK, me) would forget and deploy artillery on the next turn after losing a battle. If someone forgets the restriction and moves too far in their orders you can easily stop them short after one county, but cannon is hard to take back.

I don't know about this. According to this, I'm better off winning 40-60 than 0-40, as the latter would allow my defeated foe to move. Being better off losing more men seems wrong.

SnuggleBunnies wrote:I don't know about this. According to this, I'm better off winning 40-60 than 0-40, as the latter would allow my defeated foe to move. Being better off losing more men seems wrong.

A valid point snuggles. then should the thresholds be only for loss. As in:-

a) if you lost and your losses were 50% or more then the army must remain stationary
b) if you lost and the losses were under 50% then the army can only move one county and no flying column is possible

Also good points Will

you don't really have to specify that a flying column is not possible and light Artillery is mandatory in the Scots Covenanter army. .

So scratch those

Kelen2 wrote:Are these coming in for this turn, or next? No-one's moved as we're still awaiting 1 battle result, but I don't know if any of those pesky Rebels have submitted their turns yet.

No one has submitted moves yet Kelen but we need to sort this point before they are as the current 25% loss rule appears unfair if applied to winners and always application if you loose a battle which is undesirable becuase it means the game is stalled for all players who loose a battle basically.

GDod wrote:

The Naki Bardman.jpg

Kelen2 wrote:Are these coming in for this turn, or next? No-one's moved as we're still awaiting 1 battle result, but I don't know if any of those pesky Rebels have submitted their turns yet.

No one has submitted moves yet Kelen but we need to sort this point before they are as the current 25% loss rule appears unfair if applied to winners and always application if you loose a battle which is undesirable becuase it means the game is stalled for all players who loose a battle basically.

Agree. Only a few players appear to be weighing in on this conversation, so unless you want to do a vote for the several options proposed so far, unless anyone has some major objections I'm happy to go with your 50% suggestion for now and see how it goes. We can always amend it later if it's not working.

Only thing I'd say that we also need to sort out though is reinforcing. We know that if you are fixed you can't, and that seems logical to me, but if we are going to allow losing armies to move (suffered less than 50% casaulties), or are now imposing move restrictions on winning armies (who have suffered 50% casaulties), can these reinforce another battle that turn?

I personally feel 'no', but I can see arguments either way.

I'm feeling this campaign really is just enabling us to hammer out the rules ready for the next one. A pilot you may say.

Agree. Only a few players appear to be weighing in on this conversation, so unless you want to do a vote for the several options proposed so far, unless anyone has some major objections I'm happy to go with your 50% suggestion for now and see how it goes. We can always amend it later if it's not working.

Only thing I'd say that we also need to sort out though is reinforcing. We know that if you are fixed you can't, and that seems logical to me, but if we are going to allow losing armies to move (suffered less than 50% casaulties), or are now imposing move restrictions on winning armies (who have suffered 50% casaulties), can these reinforce another battle that turn?

I personally feel 'no', but I can see arguments either way.

I'm feeling this campaign really is just enabling us to hammer out the rules ready for the next one. A pilot you may say.

See previous post Kelen... no restrictions on winners.
Propose the folowing:-
a) if you lost and your losses were 50% or more then the army must remain stationary
b) if you lost and the losses were under 50% then the army can only move one county

Also propose that if stationary still can't reinforce but if they can move they can. What say you?

Since we don't have any benchmark for campaigning I guess we are hammering out the conflicts as we go. You're right Kelen... it will be also be a benchmark for reference in the future.

The 50% threshold still doesn't make a difference to my previous point. You are still essentially better off keeping the battle close enough that you must push the enemy to 50, than you would be getting a clean 0-40 win.

SnuggleBunnies wrote:The 50% threshold still doesn't make a difference to my previous point. You are still essentially better off keeping the battle close enough that you must push the enemy to 50, than you would be getting a clean 0-40 win.

Ah yes, I see Snuggles' point. If you manage a spectacular victory 0% v 40% the enemy still gets to move. You're better off sacrificing a few units to get a 25% v 50% victory as that way the enemy is pinned the following turn. Does seem somewhat odd.

If it was the enemy attacking you then they haven't even lost a county and they can attack again at full strength the next turn. Doesn't seem to be much of a penalty.

The only way to impose any meaningful penalty would be to say that if you lost (not drew) then you cannot move next turn. Yes it means that they can't move, but it doesn't mean they wouldn't still be involved in the next turn as there's a good chance the winning force may follow up and attack them. Also would mean that people would have to think about their moves more carefully, and it would put a stop somewhat to just chasing each other around the map.

I still think that there should also be some penalty even if you won or drew, but still incurred heavy casualties (under 25% losess no penalty, 25% - 49% can only move 1 county, 50% and over fixed?) That would reward good generalmanship, but also reflect the disruption caused by heavy casualties (otherwise you could have suffered 59% casualties and still get to carry out a full move at full strength the following turn).

Kelen's proposal seems reasonable to me. Otherwise you could say that winning and taking >50% losses leads to a 1 turn reduction in available forces, either as a % of the army or a set # of points.

1) A loss; the army must remain stationary and unable to support the following turn
2) A win or draw; 25% or under losses no penalty, 26% - 49% can only move 1 county, 50% and over must remain stationary.

We're agreed?

GDod wrote:

The Naki Bardman.jpg

1) A loss; the army must remain stationary and unable to support the following turn
2) A win or draw; 25% or under losses no penalty, 26% - 49% can only move 1 county, 50% and over must remain stationary.

We're agreed?

Sounds good to me.

Looks good. I assume the map needs updating then?

Amendment actioned 4/8/17

Amendment to movement options for armies after a battle are:-
1) A loss; the army must remain stationary and unable to support the following turn
2) A win or draw; 25% or under losses no penalty, 26% - 49% can only move 1 county, 50% and over must remain stationary.

Meaning next moves:
a) Kelen loss = stationary
b) Snuggles 0% losses = can move 2 counties
c) Kingi loss = stationary
d) Grumpy 30% losses = can move only 1 county
e) Youngr 0% losses = can move 2 counties
f) Will 45% losses = can move only 1 county
g) LFDM stationary
h) Damatrois undecided
i) Ian undecided

Thus the map to date shows:-

I know that losing armies cannot reinforce, but what about winning/drawing armies?

What about;

1) A loss: the army must remain stationary and unable to support the following turn
2) A win or draw 25% or under losses: no penalty
3) A win or draw 26% - 49% losses: can only move 1 county and unable to support the following turn
4) A win or draw 50% and losses: must remain stationary and unable to support the following turn

Kelen2 wrote:I know that losing armies cannot reinforce, but what about winning/drawing armies?

What about;

1) A loss: the army must remain stationary and unable to support the following turn
2) A win or draw 25% or under losses: no penalty
3) A win or draw 26% - 49% losses: can only move 1 county and unable to support the following turn
4) A win or draw 50% and losses: must remain stationary and unable to support the following turn

1) 2) and 4) already apply Kelen...in other words you're proposing that any reduction in full movement results in being unable to reinforce, rather than just stationary armies?