We have about 9 turns left.GottaLove88s wrote:morge4 wrote: I think Mike resigned in BdB so not sure who won? Not sure where Gort is at? I got kicked out of Lebisey. You took Bayeux. Oh yes, and Random had his usual romp in Colombelles...
Its alittle late for that now Bro...I already let him have the map and withdrew...I thought we were switching sides...So, why not let him have the map....It would be mine next turn.gortwillsaveus wrote:random27 wrote:Sorry for my allies but i think i agree with granfali , we have fought against his weakenest troops, maybe he has taken less pleasure than us (especially in the first turn when he had quite only volksgrenadier troops)
I don t play this campaign absolutly to win it , i only want to continue to take pleasure every turn, we don thave fought against great tanks but i m sure we have chances to win.
And if we lose it will be very interesting to find solutions.I ve never thought we could win very fast and maybe i ve hopped that it takes a lot of turns just to have pleasure to play
Maybe we ve forgotten that granfali is the one who has proposed the campaign and he has thought about a lot of things.
I think we can trust him when he says he has done that only for fun.(i don ' t know him at all in reality but i appreciate a lot what he s doing)
Let s battle against him some more turn to see if it s impossible to win ok ?
I agree with random27,..why are we not finishing what we started?
Have we already given up? I'd like to see us play this all the way through at least once.
Sorry guys,...but I am really confused as to what you're now doing?
I say play through with Granfali as Germans,..us as Allies,..win or lose.
If you want to tweak the game once we play all the way through,..then I'm all for it.
As granfali has said,..."I don't care if I win or lose,..I just want to play".
Hey Gort, Actually I agree with everything you & Random say, except the waiting 'til the end to tweak stuff. Here's why...gortwillsaveus wrote:I agree with random27,..why are we not finishing what we started?random27 wrote:Sorry for my allies but i think i agree with granfali , we have fought against his weakenest troops, maybe he has taken less pleasure than us (especially in the first turn when he had quite only volksgrenadier troops)
I don t play this campaign absolutly to win it , i only want to continue to take pleasure every turn, we don thave fought against great tanks but i m sure we have chances to win.
And if we lose it will be very interesting to find solutions.I ve never thought we could win very fast and maybe i ve hopped that it takes a lot of turns just to have pleasure to play
Maybe we ve forgotten that granfali is the one who has proposed the campaign and he has thought about a lot of things.
I think we can trust him when he says he has done that only for fun.(i don ' t know him at all in reality but i appreciate a lot what he s doing)
Let s battle against him some more turn to see if it s impossible to win ok ?
Have we already given up? I'd like to see us play this all the way through at least once.
Sorry guys,...but I am really confused as to what you're now doing?
I say play through with Granfali as Germans,..us as Allies,..win or lose.
If you want to tweak the game once we play all the way through,..then I'm all for it.
As granfali has said,..."I don't care if I win or lose,..I just want to play".
gjs_lebisey_woods_07pm.bam.zipGottaLove88s wrote: NOT EXACTLY HATING, YET, BUT DEFINITELY QUESTIONING:
1. naval arty is a useless bonus... Germans never choose to fight within range (coastal square and one next to it); Germans can actually achieve GJS "total victory" without ever exposing themselves to any naval fire, even with Allied BGs spread all over Normandy
Naval artillery exclusive mission was clean up beaches and areas close to coast. None inland role.
2. regular infantry are feeble... Regular grunts are easily mown down by a combined mortar, MG42 and 251s... even when Allied regulars arrive in cover (house/forest) in large numbers with mortar support of their own... Given that Allies have all of their force strength in infantry (about 650 units vs 350 German regulars), these weaklings are a major disadvantage... with no medic/rally bonus... Once infantry are suppressed they're pretty much dead in GJS, so suppression becomes meaningless
I think 90% infantry casualities in GJS are due to suppresion (surrender), very very few due to KIA. Absolutely agree with the possibility to change infantry durability (could be decreasing suppresion under 0 value and surrendering with -150 or -200). About infantry relation between sides... not exactly 650/350... remember all british BGs can reinforce so, exact relation is 1500/760 (B=180Paras) (G=190SS-120VG-450regular). More possible changes: mortar, we can come back and play with mortar teams with 2 men.
3. allies have nothing effective vs German armour... As I've just experienced, well coordinated Fireflies (the best Allied tank) still lose heavily vs similar numbers of even PzIVs, so it's going to be guttnacht vera lynn (sorry vera, lol) when any panthers/tigers arrive... Piats are only effective from one space away (and seem to take 2 turns to suppress even skinny armour) but smart enemies always keep armour 2-3 spaces away... Weakling infantry only have 2 charges, which can't be resupplied despite Allies possessing mulberry harbours scattered across all 4 beach squares and all 3 coastal towns... and their charges rarely kill and often don't suppress anyhow... Allies only have 30x 17-pdrs for the whole campaign (vs about 50x 88s and 80x 75mmPak40s, the latter being the German 17-pdr)
Another thing to improve is, as you suggested, increase AT power of infantry, so we can add more charges to regular infantry or (easier) insert a reload charge bonus. About something effective vs german armour:
Penetration values (%) [range in tiles]
Sherman vs Tiger
Frontal
12% [1-2] 0% [3+]
Side
77% [1-2] 52% [3-4]
Firefly (17pdr) vs Tiger
Frontal
72% [1-2] 43% [3-4]
Side
100% [1-2] 98% [3-4]
Sherman vs Panther
Frontal
0% [any range)
Side
100% [1-2] 84% [3-4] 59% [5-6]
Firefly (17pdr) vs Panther
Frontal
63% [1-2] 32% [3-4] 0% [5-6]
Side
100% [1-6]
Panthers and Tigers are very strong armor, but same that reality. Panther frontally is invencible, Tiger almost. During WWII for every Tiger disabled, allies need to lose four or five... and something similar for panthers. The allied streght were the massive numbers, and germans had a technically more advanced equipment, but few of them. In our campaign british side count with 180 Fireflies vs 82 Panthers and 35 Tigers. To this relation add, 60x17pdr ATguns). Overall ratio: 240 17 pdr vs 120 big cats. Even more, you could add the prodigious numbers of Shermans, M10 and Cromwell I did not have count...
Armored combat statistics for the moment give PzIV a "supernatural" power, but I think the scores are due to the way of use armor and luck, more that higher capacity of german machine.
4. typhoons are a nearly useless bonus... in actual ww2, typhoon squadrons used to wait in "cab ranks" in the sky to be called down by squaddies, immediately as required; 2nd TAF flew an average of 1,200 sorties per day in normandy, so Germans would never move tanks during daylight; Eisenhower credits typhoons with winning d-day because they almost single handedly crippled the most dangerous SS tank divisions (mostly through suppression)... But in GJS, weather seems to have a disproportionate effect; on a cloudy day, typhoons don't just fly less... they don't fly at all (nice to be a pilot, lol
5. so it feels like real world Allied advantages at d-day, ie. naval arty, mass use of airpower, strong infantry with plenty of charges, don't exist... but real world disadvantages for Germans at d-day, ie. tanks too scared to move during the day, tigers that routinely broke down, panthers that ran out of fuel, don't exist either... So i'm trying to figure out how to keep it fun for everyone???
In GJS there is 70% probability for sunny days, for the moment luck smiled germans. Germans count with some 88 (most of them were lost with the first coast battles) and a couple of WW per BG. Some typhoons can be downed but much of them will dive to fire over armors. If we think their AP_Attack is too soft we can increase, but please, first we need test it.
DDay was a beach tour for you guys... Naval, typhoon and artillery bonuses. IMHO if there is not a "strong challenge" this could become very boring, for both sides. Right there is the difficulty, to balance it for all players and everyone feels a real challenge.
MUCHISIMAS GRACIAS GRANFALI!!Granfali wrote:Write inside quote for a better comprehension.
GottaLove88s wrote: NOT EXACTLY HATING, YET, BUT DEFINITELY QUESTIONING:
1. naval arty is a useless bonus... Germans never choose to fight within range (coastal square and one next to it); Germans can actually achieve GJS "total victory" without ever exposing themselves to any naval fire, even with Allied BGs spread all over Normandy
Naval artillery exclusive mission was clean up beaches and areas close to coast. None inland role.
2. regular infantry are feeble... Regular grunts are easily mown down by a combined mortar, MG42 and 251s... even when Allied regulars arrive in cover (house/forest) in large numbers with mortar support of their own... Given that Allies have all of their force strength in infantry (about 650 units vs 350 German regulars), these weaklings are a major disadvantage... with no medic/rally bonus... Once infantry are suppressed they're pretty much dead in GJS, so suppression becomes meaningless
I think 90% infantry casualities in GJS are due to suppresion (surrender), very very few due to KIA. Absolutely agree with the possibility to change infantry durability (could be decreasing suppresion under 0 value and surrendering with -150 or -200). About infantry relation between sides... not exactly 650/350... remember all british BGs can reinforce so, exact relation is 1500/760 (B=180Paras) (G=190SS-120VG-450regular). More possible changes: mortar, we can come back and play with mortar teams with 2 men.
3. allies have nothing effective vs German armour... As I've just experienced, well coordinated Fireflies (the best Allied tank) still lose heavily vs similar numbers of even PzIVs, so it's going to be guttnacht vera lynn (sorry vera, lol) when any panthers/tigers arrive... Piats are only effective from one space away (and seem to take 2 turns to suppress even skinny armour) but smart enemies always keep armour 2-3 spaces away... Weakling infantry only have 2 charges, which can't be resupplied despite Allies possessing mulberry harbours scattered across all 4 beach squares and all 3 coastal towns... and their charges rarely kill and often don't suppress anyhow... Allies only have 30x 17-pdrs for the whole campaign (vs about 50x 88s and 80x 75mmPak40s, the latter being the German 17-pdr)
Another thing to improve is, as you suggested, increase AT power of infantry, so we can add more charges to regular infantry or (easier) insert a reload charge bonus. About something effective vs german armour:
Penetration values (%) [range in tiles]
Sherman vs Tiger
Frontal
12% [1-2] 0% [3+]
Side
77% [1-2] 52% [3-4]
Firefly (17pdr) vs Tiger
Frontal
72% [1-2] 43% [3-4]
Side
100% [1-2] 98% [3-4]
Sherman vs Panther
Frontal
0% [any range)
Side
100% [1-2] 84% [3-4] 59% [5-6]
Firefly (17pdr) vs Panther
Frontal
63% [1-2] 32% [3-4] 0% [5-6]
Side
100% [1-6]
Panthers and Tigers are very strong armor, but same that reality. Panther frontally is invencible, Tiger almost. During WWII for every Tiger disabled, allies need to lose four or five... and something similar for panthers. The allied streght were the massive numbers, and germans had a technically more advanced equipment, but few of them. In our campaign british side count with 180 Fireflies vs 82 Panthers and 35 Tigers. To this relation add, 60x17pdr ATguns). Overall ratio: 240 17 pdr vs 120 big cats. Even more, you could add the prodigious numbers of Shermans, M10 and Cromwell I did not have count...
Armored combat statistics for the moment give PzIV a "supernatural" power, but I think the scores are due to the way of use armor and luck, more that higher capacity of german machine.
4. typhoons are a nearly useless bonus... in actual ww2, typhoon squadrons used to wait in "cab ranks" in the sky to be called down by squaddies, immediately as required; 2nd TAF flew an average of 1,200 sorties per day in normandy, so Germans would never move tanks during daylight; Eisenhower credits typhoons with winning d-day because they almost single handedly crippled the most dangerous SS tank divisions (mostly through suppression)... But in GJS, weather seems to have a disproportionate effect; on a cloudy day, typhoons don't just fly less... they don't fly at all (nice to be a pilot, lol
5. so it feels like real world Allied advantages at d-day, ie. naval arty, mass use of airpower, strong infantry with plenty of charges, don't exist... but real world disadvantages for Germans at d-day, ie. tanks too scared to move during the day, tigers that routinely broke down, panthers that ran out of fuel, don't exist either... So i'm trying to figure out how to keep it fun for everyone???
In GJS there is 70% probability for sunny days, for the moment luck smiled germans. Germans count with some 88 (most of them were lost with the first coast battles) and a couple of WW per BG. Some typhoons can be downed but much of them will dive to fire over armors. If we think their AP_Attack is too soft we can increase, but please, first we need test it.
DDay was a beach tour for you guys... Naval, typhoon and artillery bonuses. IMHO if there is not a "strong challenge" this could become very boring, for both sides. Right there is the difficulty, to balance it for all players and everyone feels a real challenge.
gjs_lebisey_woods_07pm.bam.zipSo Allied naval arty bonus is only meant for fighting weak VG units?Granfali wrote:Naval artillery exclusive mission was clean up beaches and areas close to coast. None inland role.
It's not realistic to assume all Allied commanders won't reinforce until they have zero units in a BG. Some commanders wanted to reinforce with 80-90% of their units still intact (see below). Para is similar to Waffen SS with less numbers (69 paras, 180 Waffen SS).Granfali wrote:I think 90% infantry casualities in GJS are due to suppresion (surrender), very very few due to KIA. Absolutely agree with the possibility to change infantry durability (could be decreasing suppresion under 0 value and surrendering with -150 or -200). About infantry relation between sides... not exactly 650/350... remember all british BGs can reinforce so, exact relation is 1500/760 (B=180Paras) (G=190SS-120VG-450regular).
Brits need stronger mortars to stand even half a chance versus German armour.Granfali wrote:More possible changes: mortar, we can come back and play with mortar teams with 2 men.
That's a good solution. Let's bump all infantry up to 3 charges, all engineers to 5, increase AT impact of both. Add resupply for M-morale BGs (helps both sides)Granfali wrote:Another thing to improve is, as you suggested, increase AT power of infantry, so we can add more charges to regular infantry or (easier) insert a reload charge bonus.
So if I understand what you're saying, to breakeven (not win) Allies need 4-5 Fireflies for every Tiger or Panther... In GJS, Allies have 93 Fireflies. Germans have 82 Panthers and 35 Tigers. So by your calculation, Allies need 450-600 Fireflies. Or am I missing something?Granfali wrote:Panthers and Tigers are very strong armor, but same that reality. Panther frontally is invencible, Tiger almost. During WWII for every Tiger disabled, allies need to lose four or five... and something similar for panthers.
Ok, I begin to see what I'm missing... But it's not realistic to assume that Allies will get 2x 93 (ie. 180) Fireflies, because I can promise you that the Allied players won't wait until their BGs have zero units before reinforcing. One in particular (who shall remain nameless here,Granfali wrote:The allied streght were the massive numbers, and germans had a technically more advanced equipment, but few of them. In our campaign british side count with 180 Fireflies vs 82 Panthers and 35 Tigers. To this relation add, 60x17pdr ATguns). Overall ratio: 240 17 pdr vs 120 big cats. Even more, you could add the prodigious numbers of Shermans, M10 and Cromwell I did not have count...
) wanted to reinforce on turn 2!!
Thanks for looking at this G. It's not so much the 70%. We're just looking for a way to even out the "invincible" armour problem. In real WW2, that was mostly with airpower. The problem in GJS is that the Germans have 90x 88s/Wirbelwind AA, so even when they fly, Typhoons make little to no impact. We're not sure of the answer, but we're very open to suggestions?Granfali wrote:In GJS there is 70% probability for sunny days, for the moment luck smiled germans. Germans count with some 88 (most of them were lost with the first coast battles) and a couple of WW per BG. Some typhoons can be downed but much of them will dive to fire over armors. If we think their AP_Attack is too soft we can increase, but please, first we need test it.
Agreed. Beach was too easy for Allies and too hard for Germans. To be fair, we should look at fixing that too...Granfali wrote:DDay was a beach tour for you guys... Naval, typhoon and artillery bonuses. IMHO if there is not a "strong challenge" this could become very boring, for both sides. Right there is the difficulty, to balance it for all players and everyone feels a real challenge.
I accept to play, of course, but...GottaLove88s wrote: But before we get into the detail PLEASE PLAY ME ON LEBISEY.
That will explain much better than I can in words.
Agreed. I wouldn't attack that monster either. I'm replicating that monster attacking you! I'm just being nice by keeping it as a 20-20 rather than the 26-20 that the Allies will actually have to play. You dice rolled no Typhoons (so far we've played 4 turns; 2 with Typhoons, 2 without). I'm being generous saying you're one of the 12 Allied units that got some Arty this turn. But the choice is, either you fight that guy, or you keep withdrawing all the way back to Dover? And I gave you 69/50. The very best Allied tank BG. Surrender already?Granfali wrote:I accept to play, of course, but...GottaLove88s wrote: But before we get into the detail PLEASE PLAY ME ON LEBISEY.
That will explain much better than I can in words.
1º I will never would attack over that map (the more open of all in GJS) vs a "superb" BG (panther or tiger)
2º I would ensure to have all support (artillery + typhoons)
3º I would ensure enemy don't have artillery bonus
Unfortunately what's about to happen isn't an isolated case. 11 German BGs have Medic+Rally+Promote. 3 Brit BGs do (and none of those have any tanks until they reinforce). As you suggest above, the only answer for Brits facing those 11 BGs is to keep retreating... I don't believe that will be much fun for a 60-turn campaign?Granfali wrote:I think, IMHO, you are focusing in particular battles, where obviously, german superBG have very high chance to win. And I am looking this campaign with a more strategic view. We can play lot of times "Villers bocage battle" and never will win british side, but Normandy campaign was winned in a lot of battles more than that.
True, but like you said, the Allies had to send in 4-5x more Shermans than Panthers/Tigers, which often broke down or ran out of gas (none of which replicated in GJS)... And in WW2 German panzer crews were scared silly to drive during daylight because they knew they would be blown to bits by the 1,200 daily Typhoon sorties (not in GJS either)... Panzers only moved at night... So I see the Tiger v Sherman issue perfectly replicated in GJS... But are the Germans scared of my Typhoons? Heck they are! They have 90x 88s/Wirbelwind AA. My Typhoon is a (slightly) annoying fly every 6-7 turns, lol...Granfali wrote:For british player can be frustrating and not funny to lose battle after battle vs these sort of BGs, but same that sherman tank crews, which all of them wished big cats, suffered driving his "bad" armors... but finally won the war
And you'd be surprised by the zero impact that a Typhoon makes when the enemy has two 88s and a Wirbelwind on the map. Looking for solutions, maybe we should reduce the Typhoon AA vulnerability and increase it's bomb effect, so that it actually does something in GJS (when it's not cloudy)?Yes, I didn't understand this either. Normally, in the 1940's France scenarios cornfields give great cover. I used them all the time, hehe. When I was attacking Lebisey as a Brit, only a week ago but it feels like a lifetime lol, cornfields didn't seem to give me any cover. This must be a mapping thing? Perhaps the type of terrain tile underneath the corn? It was a pain during the actual game, but I'm sure G can fix it for next use in GJS tho... I hope so. Brits need corn.random27 wrote:Is it normal that the yellow field in this map gives no cover? i thought it was the case but it seems no
Maybe it could help brit attacks
And for realism soldiers can hide in corn fields no?
I don't remember to paint corn in that map, it was copied from a Maximus map and then added some more elements... but grain was. May be repainting with France40 grain...GottaLove88s wrote:Yes, I didn't understand this either. Normally, in the 1940's France scenarios cornfields give great cover. I used them all the time, hehe. When I was attacking Lebisey as a Brit, only a week ago but it feels like a lifetime lol, cornfields didn't seem to give me any cover. This must be a mapping thing? Perhaps the type of terrain tile underneath the corn? It was a pain during the actual game, but I'm sure G can fix it for next use in GJS tho... I hope so. Brits need corn.random27 wrote:Is it normal that the yellow field in this map gives no cover? i thought it was the case but it seems no
Maybe it could help brit attacks
And for realism soldiers can hide in corn fields no?
I'll check some of the France 1940 scenarios to figure out how they did it... In this kind of map, infantry need the kind of cover that corn provides... In case you were wondering, that's why I absolutely didn't bother down the middle when we first played Lebisey... I realised that all of the Brit infantry were completely visible to your excellent vantage point in the Church...Granfali wrote:I don't remember to paint corn in that map, it was copied from a Maximus map and then added some more elements... but grain was. May be repainting with France40 grain...GottaLove88s wrote:Yes, I didn't understand this either. Normally, in the 1940's France scenarios cornfields give great cover. I used them all the time, hehe. When I was attacking Lebisey as a Brit, only a week ago but it feels like a lifetime lol, cornfields didn't seem to give me any cover. This must be a mapping thing? Perhaps the type of terrain tile underneath the corn? It was a pain during the actual game, but I'm sure G can fix it for next use in GJS tho... I hope so. Brits need corn.random27 wrote:Is it normal that the yellow field in this map gives no cover? i thought it was the case but it seems no
Maybe it could help brit attacks
And for realism soldiers can hide in corn fields no?
but, we can try it tomorrow about 1700 GMT+1 ok?