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Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:17 pm
by goose_2
Marginaldefeat...what a great name

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:46 am
by Marginaldefeat
goose_2 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:17 pm Marginaldefeat...what a great name
And the origin comes from exactly a Panzer General multiplayer ( hotseat) 20 years ago, first year at University :) We had a bet with my friend ( 5 beers) who wins the scenario ( Battle of Moscow 42) and the result was decided in the very last turn... when my 5 str Partisan refused to retreat against a Tiger tank attack with only 2 entrachment :D
Wish you the same in your campaign by the way like in my current campaign :)

Sooo....Where is the famous hospitality ?? We only got hostility instead... They even forgot to invite us for a nice Christmas party and dinner at Kremlin. So... we invited ourselves :)
Sorry for some reason neither upload from computer nor the img image worked so I have to upload like this, hope it s visible at least :)
https://kepkuldes.com/images/837f6c12f8 ... 4e0de5.png

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:57 am
by goose_2
Moscow is almost fallen. What 3 rounds are the purge rounds? I forget.

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:22 pm
by goose_2
Marginaldefeat wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:46 am
goose_2 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:17 pm Marginaldefeat...what a great name
And the origin comes from exactly a Panzer General multiplayer ( hotseat) 20 years ago, first year at University :) We had a bet with my friend ( 5 beers) who wins the scenario ( Battle of Moscow 42) and the result was decided in the very last turn... when my 5 str Partisan refused to retreat against a Tiger tank attack with only 2 entrachment :D
Wish you the same in your campaign by the way like in my current campaign :)

Sooo....Where is the famous hospitality ?? We only got hostility instead... They even forgot to invite us for a nice Christmas party and dinner at Kremlin. So... we invited ourselves :)
Sorry for some reason neither upload from computer nor the img image worked so I have to upload like this, hope it s visible at least :)
https://kepkuldes.com/images/837f6c12f8 ... 4e0de5.png
How is your Southern area looking? Around Rostov

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:29 pm
by Marginaldefeat
goose_2 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:57 am Moscow is almost fallen. What 3 rounds are the purge rounds? I forget.
13-15. I will probably have 0 prestige and a few infantry losses aroung Leningrad seems unaviodable, but the +1000 around turn 15-16 could be the key to save the day :)

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:33 pm
by Marginaldefeat
goose_2 wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 12:22 pm
Marginaldefeat wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:46 am
goose_2 wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 9:17 pm Marginaldefeat...what a great name
And the origin comes from exactly a Panzer General multiplayer ( hotseat) 20 years ago, first year at University :) We had a bet with my friend ( 5 beers) who wins the scenario ( Battle of Moscow 42) and the result was decided in the very last turn... when my 5 str Partisan refused to retreat against a Tiger tank attack with only 2 entrachment :D
Wish you the same in your campaign by the way like in my current campaign :)

Sooo....Where is the famous hospitality ?? We only got hostility instead... They even forgot to invite us for a nice Christmas party and dinner at Kremlin. So... we invited ourselves :)
Sorry for some reason neither upload from computer nor the img image worked so I have to upload like this, hope it s visible at least :)
https://kepkuldes.com/images/837f6c12f8 ... 4e0de5.png
How is your Southern area looking? Around Rostov
Captured Mariupol and my recon reached Rostov, but i will defense behind the Mius River in the next 3-4 turns, like it happened in reality.

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:03 pm
by Locarnus
Quick recon really seems to pay off, nice work Marginaldefeat!


A question to everyone who has played Battlefield Europe:
What are your thoughts on the 10.5cm Flak and the 12.8cm Flak?
Did you buy or upgrade to one of those?

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:35 pm
by PeteMitchell
Locarnus wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:03 pm Quick recon really seems to pay off, nice work Marginaldefeat!


A question to everyone who has played Battlefield Europe:
What are your thoughts on the 10.5cm Flak and the 12.8cm Flak?
Did you buy or upgrade to one of those?
I did not, didn't find it worthwhile in light of other requirements...

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:06 am
by Uhu
Exactly. IMHO it would be a total waste of resources to upgrade any AA. Exception only in sepcific situation, that from 1943 you have no free slots and you need movable AA.
Even the 88AA is not so much better to have a value of upgrade. It is always better to purchase:
- Fighters, because they are highly mobile
- If city objectives are needed to protected, than the 37mm AA is the best option with horses.
- If we are poor than even the 20mm AA is a good selection for around 100 prestige.

PeteMitchell wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:35 pm
Locarnus wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:03 pm Quick recon really seems to pay off, nice work Marginaldefeat!


A question to everyone who has played Battlefield Europe:
What are your thoughts on the 10.5cm Flak and the 12.8cm Flak?
Did you buy or upgrade to one of those?
I did not, didn't find it worthwhile in light of other requirements...

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:52 am
by Marginaldefeat
Uhu wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:06 am Exactly. IMHO it would be a total waste of resources to upgrade any AA. Exception only in sepcific situation, that from 1943 you have no free slots and you need movable AA.
Even the 88AA is not so much better to have a value of upgrade. It is always better to purchase:
- Fighters, because they are highly mobile
- If city objectives are needed to protected, than the 37mm AA is the best option with horses.
- If we are poor than even the 20mm AA is a good selection for around 100 prestige.

PeteMitchell wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:35 pm
Locarnus wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:03 pm Quick recon really seems to pay off, nice work Marginaldefeat!


A question to everyone who has played Battlefield Europe:
What are your thoughts on the 10.5cm Flak and the 12.8cm Flak?
Did you buy or upgrade to one of those?
I did not, didn't find it worthwhile in light of other requirements...
I can confirm, any AA AND Artillery upgrade is a total waste of money. P:S I didn t remember the Allied airforce is soooooo agressive even in early 42. They used 4 yes FOUR fighters to attack my poor Bf 110 F 10 str fighther bomber... which was defended by 2 of my best fighters, still it was hunt down, RIP :)

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:53 am
by McGuba
When it comes to the representation of AA guns in the mod there are several different topics to cover, including historical effectiveness and game engine limitations.

As for the historical effectiveness of German heavy AA guns in WW2, this is from quora:
Effectiveness - Based on WW2 German figures, in 1944, the 88mm flak 36 (most commonly deployed model) anti aircraft gun required an average of 16,000 shells to bring down one aircraft flying at high altitude. That works out at 117 Tonnes of Ammunition per aircraft shot down which is the same weight as 50 Messerschmitt Bf 109s Fighter Planes. British AA guns expended similar amounts of ammunition per aircraft downed during “the Blitz” 1940–41.

Numbers of Aircraft - During WW2 the Germans credited their Anti Aircraft gunners with the destruction of 2,598 aircraft out of 14,938 (17%).

Technology - German AA effectiveness did not show any significant improvements during WW2. The USSBS calculated that a working proximity fuze, similar to the ones deployed by the Allies from 1942, would have increased Flak Efficiency by a factor of 3.4.

tl;dr - Given the enormous expenditure of ammunition required to bring down one aircraft (16,000 88mm shells) German anti-aircraft guns were probably a relatively ineffective use of scarce resources.
https://www.quora.com/How-effective-was ... nse-in-WW2


It appears that one of the problems with German heavy AA was that their shells did not have a proximity fuze. They were only time fuzed, set to explode after travelling to a certain pre-determined altitude. But often the altitude of the bombers was mis-calculated and thus the shells went through the formation or even the body of certain planes without exploding. Obviously, if equipped with a proximity fuze in these cases they would have exploded as well doing much more damage. The interesting thing is that although there were several proximity designs developed in Germany (including acoustic and electrostatic ones), none of these saw large scale service for some reason. Some sources claim these experiments were eventually unsuccessful, others that there was just no interest/willingness to further develop and mass produce these.

It looks like the standard German Flak fuze was the Zt.Z. S/30 mechanical time fuze with absolutely no impact action. Which means on some occasions the shell simply went through the wing or fuselage of a heavy bomber without exploding, since the the time fuze was set to explode at a higher altitude. So even a combined timed/impact fuze would have increased the effectiveness of German AA for which the technology was there from the beginning. Such double action fuzes were in fact developed by the Germans in the end but their large scale use was only to be conducted from April 1945, too little, too late. :|

On the other hand, the Western Allies did develop an effective proximity fuze and used it with great effect and they guarded it as top secret. Which means the heavy AA guns of these nations should probably be more effective in the game from about 1943. However, these were introduced later in the war when they had air superiority anyway, so their effect was somewhat limited. In the mod the Western Allies have relatively few heavy AA guns as they mainly rely on their fighters and adding more heavy AA guns would only limit the space available for their tanks and infantry to move.

So basically these are the reasons why the German heavy AA was nerfed from the vanilla game, and had their rate of fire drastically reduced from 10 to 7. But this change was originally done by deducter and not me. I just took it over as I did many other unit stat changes from his unit revisions mod.

I know that a lot of players are surprised or even mad to see that the effectiveness of the 8.8cm Flak is much reduced in the mod compared to the vanilla game, but the historical research shows that these were not very effective in actually shooting down planes. Their main use was that of being morale boosters, creating a "show" for the civilian population that the government does everything to stop the bombers. But heavy Flak also affected the crews of the bombers and on many occasions managed to disperse the bomber formation making it easier for the fighters to attack individual aircraft.

It think this is all well simulated in the mod now as AA can only do like 1-2 damage to an enemy air unit which may seem marginal, but yet it can just be enough for the fighters to finish it off.

As for the game engine limitation, obviously OOB does a better job in having two different air unit classes, small and large with small and large AA guns being effective against these, respectively. In reality a 2cm AA gun would be unable to hit a high flying B-17 because it was flying well over its maximum range.

On the other hand, smaller caliber, high rate of fire AA guns were fairly lethal against low flying aircraft. Thus it is good that tac bombers have low air defense making them vulnerable to these. The only problem here is that they are also vulnerable to heavy AA, which should not be the case.

This is indeed a problem in PzC1 (and sadly, as far as I know in PzC2 as well) and there is no good solution for that. There is only the work-around solution to give higher rate of fire and lower air attack stat to smaller caliber AA guns and the opposite to the heavies. To some extent it makes heavy AA units more effective against air units with higher ground defense and that's why high flying bombers and fighers have a higher air defense in the mod.

Perhaps it coud be improved by giving even lower rate of fire to the heavy AAs while further increasing their air attack. But the historical evidence shows that these heavy AA guns were not very effective anyway so it is up to further debate (and testing).

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 2:13 pm
by Locarnus
@McGuba:
These are some good points for the 7 rof.
While it feels a bit annoying to have weak 8.8cm flak, perhaps the perception of that unit has to change based on historical facts. And not the other way around.
Especially with the high/low altitude problem and the limited suppression mechanics of PzC 1 in mind.

About the 10.5cm and 12.8cm Flak:
They effectively seem to be paper units only in BE.
Putting them in the same upgrade group as the 88 would probably make them too numerous.
Perhaps gifting the player one of those units would be a good option to achieve a bit more historical unit variety. Similar to the Elefant TD.

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:15 pm
by PeteMitchell
So best to use the 8.8 against tanks :-) ... as a "naked" Tiger so to speak... :mrgreen: :lol:

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:13 pm
by Locarnus
PeteMitchell wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:15 pm So best to use the 8.8 against tanks :-) ... as a "naked" Tiger so to speak... :mrgreen: :lol:
That's the other side of the coin.
If they are too weak in the pure AA role in the West, everyone will ship all available 88s to the front lines.
Where they can perform double duty, with AT possibly becoming their primary role.
That would also be unhistorical.
A tricky balancing situation.

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:17 pm
by Uhu
That *was* the situation, when things were gone really bad for the Germans. :)
On the other hand, even the AA is quite vulnerable to enemy attacks, especially against arty and inf, so it is not a wunderwaffe against land based units.
Locarnus wrote: Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:13 pm That's the other side of the coin.
If they are too weak in the pure AA role in the West, everyone will ship all available 88s to the front lines.
Where they can perform double duty, with AT possibly becoming their primary role.
That would also be unhistorical.

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:24 pm
by Marginaldefeat
What is always a concern for me when i play this game... what to do with my 2 PZIIC tanks... They are too good to be delegated to partizan hunter, too weak to be useful in frontline from 1942 and onwards, and too expensive too be upgraded, because no upgrade path for them, and it s never worth paying a full price.

Another one when i usually trade one U boat for one destroyer several time and it s hard to decide whether or not it s worth it. I mean on paper for sure, however, my U Boat number is limited, meanwhile the Allies seem to have an unlimited number of destroyers :)

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:31 pm
by Uhu
Do you mean in single, or multi game?
In single game, if you manage your prestige right (for example not waste on AA, Arty upgrades and just limited elite reinforcements for selected units, avoiding heavy losses), you have prestige in 1942-43 to upgrade them on Pz IV. These cheap machines can be elite reinforced cheaper and a two star Pz IV is definitely better, than a zero, or one star.

In multi, circumstances are harder. :) It can happen, that no prestige is there for upgrade. I have a PzIIF against Naos still in turn 78 - it was used against infantry in many places.

Marginaldefeat wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:24 pm What is always a concern for me when i play this game... what to do with my 2 PZIIC tanks... They are too good to be delegated to partizan hunter, too weak to be useful in frontline from 1942 and onwards, and too expensive too be upgraded, because no upgrade path for them, and it s never worth paying a full price.

Another one when i usually trade one U boat for one destroyer several time and it s hard to decide whether or not it s worth it. I mean on paper for sure, however, my U Boat number is limited, meanwhile the Allies seem to have an unlimited number of destroyers :)

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:43 pm
by Marginaldefeat
Uhu wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:31 pm Do you mean in single, or multi game?
In single game, if you manage your prestige right (for example not waste on AA, Arty upgrades and just limited elite reinforcements for selected units, avoiding heavy losses), you have prestige in 1942-43 to upgrade them on Pz IV. These cheap machines can be elite reinforced cheaper and a two star Pz IV is definitely better, than a zero, or one star.

In multi, circumstances are harder. :) It can happen, that no prestige is there for upgrade. I have a PzIIF against Naos still in turn 78 - it was used against infantry in many places.

Marginaldefeat wrote: Wed Feb 23, 2022 1:24 pm What is always a concern for me when i play this game... what to do with my 2 PZIIC tanks... They are too good to be delegated to partizan hunter, too weak to be useful in frontline from 1942 and onwards, and too expensive too be upgraded, because no upgrade path for them, and it s never worth paying a full price.

Another one when i usually trade one U boat for one destroyer several time and it s hard to decide whether or not it s worth it. I mean on paper for sure, however, my U Boat number is limited, meanwhile the Allies seem to have an unlimited number of destroyers :)
In single player, multi is different, I am curious to have an experience about that of course. Still, somehow I never have the prestige to upgrade them on FM. So I usually use them as a bait for enemy heavy tanks to go for them and move to forests or hills :) So by 1943 i lose them :D But even if i would not lose I always find better opportunies to buy or upgrade, especially my level bombers or italian fighters and so on, not to mention minor allied nation's fighters and units :) And obviously all PZ 3 to Panthers etc :)

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:57 am
by P210
Moved

Re: Battlefield: Europe MOD v2.3

Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2022 3:29 pm
by McGuba
P210 wrote: Tue Mar 01, 2022 11:57 am Not sure if this has been considered before or even doable..
It cannot be done as you describe it, only fixed areas (AI zones) could be designated as supply depot areas, not units moving around the map. Only the developer of the game could add this function. This should be posted in here:
viewtopic.php?f=121&t=100067