Slitherine

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captainjack wrote: Wed Nov 10, 2021 9:52 am That's a good point on the 45 being a light gun. It was a slightly scaled up 37mm PaK, so should also be mobile.
I've got some SE AT gun transports that have passive SA and HA, and guns used en portee (25mm French, the 2pounder and 6 pounder) switch between portee mode and normal AT mode. I haven't had inspiration to do a proper equipment overhaul or mod work for a while but some of your ideas look very useful.

I really like this change.
Now the 45mm AT gun has an Attack mode with a speed = 2, a Defensive mode (but it has a high probability of surrender, since speed = 0) and a Transport mode.
It turns out to be a very useful unit.

I even decided to decrease HA -1.
This is also quite consistent with the fact that the real penetration of the shells was lower than the table values.
Due to poor quality of shells.
At the same time, in the spring of 1942, a sub-caliber projectile for this gun will appear. That will make her bigger HA.
This will be a reason for a low cost upgrade.
But in the version with new ammunition, the T-20 Komsomolets transport will disappear.
Due to their heavy losses in the first year of the war.
This is the fee)

On September 6, 1941, the Germans begin the blockade of Leningrad.
Historically, it started on September 8th. Wow pretty accurate.
In the center. The Vyazemsk defensive operation will begin in October.
The Red Army retreats from Smolensk and forms defensive positions at Vyazma.
And of course the disaster near Kiev is happening at this time

2move light AT guns are very annoying. Mixed with a few highly entrenched camo ones, or some minefields, they can really slow and disrupt an attack - which is just what they should be doing.

Just for discussion.
Interested in opinion.

There are 3 upgrades available in the mod for the base (light artillery).

- 120mm Mortar
Range = 1, SA = 9, HA = 2, Mov = 2, Prestige = 90
Possibly Noupgrade (now it is).
Defense unit, the cheapest, more mobile Mov=2, but has increased protection Close Defense = 2
Also SA equivalent to howitzer 122mm cannon.

- 76.2mm USW M1939
Range = 2, SA = 6, HA = 3, Mov = 1, Prestige = 190
A kind of compromise between 122mm and the cheapest variant.

- 122mm M-30 M1938
Range = 2, SA = 9, HA = 4, Mov = 1, Prestige = 270
Good gun.

All of these units have no strenght limit.
If the artillery is old and no longer available, it may have maximum strenght limitations.

Which would you choose? Why?
If the choice is divided into parts, what is the percentage of the upgrade for each option?

Let me remind that the conditions are a limitation of prestige.

Intenso82 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:44 am - 120mm Mortar
Range = 1, SA = 9, HA = 2, Mov = 2, Prestige = 90

Range 2, 5700 m

Intenso82 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:44 am - 76.2mm USW M1939

F-22 USV M39. At 22.06.41 - 1170 pcs

Intenso82 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 8:44 am - 122mm M-30 M1938
Range = 2, SA = 9, HA = 4, Mov = 1, Prestige = 270

11800 m, Range 3. SA -10 (21,76 kg)

10.5 cm leFH 18 - 10675 m. Range 3. SA -9 (14,8 kg).

In mod 1 hex=15km.

Therefore, as a playable distance assumption for divisional artillery, it is 2 hexes.
If she shoots 16-20 + km it counts as 3 hex long-range artillery.
There is artillery that shoots at 40 km, this is also 3 hexes.

A larger number will look strange 4 hexes is 60 km more suitable for short-range tactical missiles, lol
Therefore, mortars are a compromise and were introduced only due to the fact that in one period of the war they were brought to the divisional level. Due to the general lack of artillery.
Therefore, it is only an option. The player's decision is which to choose arty or more limited mortars, albeit with a larger firepower.

I also tried scattering rule. "RangeAttackPenalty"
-1 SA for 1 hex.
Therefore, mortars are the most powerful unit of the 120mm family.
Because a conventional cannon usually shoots from a distance of 2.
And the strength there is 8, instead of 9 for mortars.

Since the AI ​​is dumb, the units are not symmetrical in terms of characteristics.
German 10.5cm artillery has a range of 3.
Well, she's more mobile)
And in general, this reflects that the German artillery is more powerful than the Soviet one.

Intenso82 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:32 pm In mod 1 hex=15km.

Therefore, as a playable distance assumption for divisional artillery, it is 2 hexes.
If she shoots 16-20 + km it counts as 3 hex long-range artillery.
There is artillery that shoots at 40 km, this is also 3 hexes.

A larger number will look strange 4 hexes is 60 km more suitable for short-range tactical missiles, lol
Therefore, mortars are a compromise and were introduced only due to the fact that in one period of the war they were brought to the divisional level. Due to the general lack of artillery.
Therefore, it is only an option. The player's decision is which to choose arty or more limited mortars, albeit with a larger firepower.

I also tried scattering rule. "RangeAttackPenalty"
-1 SA for 1 hex.
Therefore, mortars are the most powerful unit of the 120mm family.
Because a conventional cannon usually shoots from a distance of 2.
And the strength there is 8, instead of 9 for mortars.

Since the AI ​​is dumb, the units are not symmetrical in terms of characteristics.
German 10.5cm artillery has a range of 3.
Well, she's more mobile)
And in general, this reflects that the German artillery is more powerful than the Soviet one.

Imho range scaling should be based on tactical considerations within the hex combat meta, and not be tied too much to the exact hex scaling.
Thus I feel it is more important to make one arty outrange another arty, than sticking to 1hex=15km.
Range 1 for adjacent fire without counterfire, or defensive support fire
Range 2 for supporting an attack from the rear
Range 3 for possible counterbattery fire (above 1 friendly and 1 enemy frontline unit)
Range 4 and up for long range fire (eg above divisional level)

Intenso82 wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 3:32 pm Since the AI ​​is dumb ...
And in general, this reflects that the German artillery is more powerful than the Soviet one.

ROFL

Locarnus wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:03 pm Imho range scaling should be based on tactical considerations within the hex combat meta, and not be tied too much to the exact hex scaling.
Thus I feel it is more important to make one arty outrange another arty, than sticking to 1hex=15km.
Range 1 for adjacent fire without counterfire, or defensive support fire
Range 2 for supporting an attack from the rear
Range 3 for possible counterbattery fire (above 1 friendly and 1 enemy frontline unit)
Range 4 and up for long range fire (eg above divisional level)

Agreed.

Locarnus wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:03 pm Imho range scaling should be based on tactical considerations within the hex combat meta, and not be tied too much to the exact hex scaling.
Thus I feel it is more important to make one arty outrange another arty, than sticking to 1hex=15km.
Range 1 for adjacent fire without counterfire, or defensive support fire
Range 2 for supporting an attack from the rear
Range 3 for possible counterbattery fire (above 1 friendly and 1 enemy frontline unit)
Range 4 and up for long range fire (eg above divisional level)

Mortars represent defensive support fire.

Returning to the topic of the question, which upgrade option out of the three above will you choose? And why?
Or what is the percentage distribution?
There are 50 artillery units of this type in the mod.

It is hard to say as some information is still missing like the maximum ammo of each arty unit, what are the available land transports for them and what is their price and also the amount of available prestige and unit slots.

If there is no core slot limit I may purchase more of the cheaper ones, especially if we are still talking about the year 1941, when defense and delaying is the most important goal. If there is limited core but plenty of prestige I buy more of the best. Other than that maximum ammo is also very important as even the best arty is useless if it runs out of ammo too often. And then there is the question of how many of these are already available in the map, what is the general strategic situation, for example at a certain objective city I would prefer to have one of them over another, because of the terrain or the other units already there, so I think it is more complex to answere it here just in theory.

McGuba wrote: Sun Nov 14, 2021 7:41 pm It is hard to say as some information is still missing like the maximum ammo of each arty unit, what are the available land transports for them and what is their price and also the amount of available prestige and unit slots.

If there is no core slot limit I may purchase more of the cheaper ones, especially if we are still talking about the year 1941, when defense and delaying is the most important goal. If there is limited core but plenty of prestige I buy more of the best. Other than that maximum ammo is also very important as even the best arty is useless if it runs out of ammo too often. And then there is the question of how many of these are already available in the map, what is the general strategic situation, for example at a certain objective city I would prefer to have one of them over another, because of the terrain or the other units already there, so I think it is more complex to answere it here just in theory.

Yes, there is much in the fog of war.
Well, I'm more about the general strategic level.

There is no purchase, only an upgrade of existing units.
Old artillery does not have an infinite supply in warehouses.
It cannot be fully replenished indefinitely, only limited replenishment, up to 5-7 strength.

Yes, yes I added this system

I wrote about prestige in the characteristics of the units above.
But in general:
120mm mortar - 100 prestige, Ammo = 3 (Modulation of lack of 120mm mines), horse-drawn
76mm - 200 prestige, Ammo = 5, horse-drawn
122mm M-30 - 300 prestige, Ammo = 4, horse-drawn or S-65 tractor.

For comparison, 152mm has Ammo = 3. But it will have its own historical difficulties )

I tried to simulate the "Ammunition crisis" in the Red Army also) It worked good.

A few introductory notes from the "what if .." series
There is no limit on the number of units, only 50 units can be used, but for the upgrade they must be alive in the scenario)
On the next deployment, this is not necessary, since dead units can be restored - using the Reforming units setting.
But it's more expensive to get it.

Situation №1.
1941 year.
The prestige is severely limited.
To upgrade, you need to take a unit out of the battle.
Correlate that a good unit (122mm M-30) costs 300 prestige.
The player gets 150-200 prestige per turn.
Upgrading a fighter to a new type also costs 300 prestige, by comparison.

What do you want to upgrade to?
If you don't upgrade, there will be a damaged unit with a maximum strength of 5-7

Situation №2.
Spring 1942. Deployment of troops.
Instead of the 76mm M1939, there will be a 76mm M1942 Zis3 with an additional AT mode, at almost the same cost of 200 prestige.

There are about 50 divisional artillery units. No purchases.
50 x 300 = 15000 for 122mm M-30 to upgrade everything to the best art.
50 x 100 = 5000 for 120mm mortars.
A big difference.

Of course, the prestige of which will not be enough for everything)
You need to choose what to upgrade first of all to arty or other classes, such as tanks or aircraft.

Of course, there may be quiet sections of the front, where only defense is required. For this, only defensive fire (mortars) seems cheaper.
It can be more effective than damaged old artillery with 5-7 strength.
This is why the 120mm mortar has the NoUpgrade trait.
Such a pay

OK. For example, if the prestige is 10000 average. You can deploy not necessarily 50 artillery units, but also a smaller number.
What proportions between types of artillery will you choose?

I would probably upgrade 75% to the 76mm and 25% to the 122mm. I would not upgrade any artillery to mortars because of their low ammo stats. The mortars have great SA values but their lack of range will limit their utility. I want the option to use artillery defensively or offensively even if there is a penalty for shooting farther than 1 hex (it can still reduce entrenchment). If the mortars have a higher ROF I might consider their use but it is very challenging to take artillery out of the line and send them to the rear during your mod of Barbarossa. It would be difficult to invest that time in a range limited artillery unit. Lower SA values in artillery does not seem to be as detrimental as with direct fire units in my experience.

Speaking of artillery....I remember playing your mod and attacking a Wehrmacht infantry unit in a forest. It had nowhere to retreat and I wanted to force a surrender. Automatic entrenchment is 2 so....I had two conscripts attack before I used my artillery and sent in the regulars. It had to be done that way in order to remove the entrenchment and allow the artillery to be most effective. It was such a powerful example of some of the difficult decisions that had to be made during that critical time in history. Panzer Corps, with it’s standard equipment file and 10 strength units, never required me to make that tactical choice. Your mod brought that type of situation to life for the first time and reminded me of a quote by the great Rokossovsky: “They did not know their attack was a diversion, we couldn’t tell them, and their future losses weighed heavy on me” (I am paraphrasing because I do not remember the exact quote or where I read it).

RAW is a masterpiece in gaming and historical education!

Just one question will the tanks have a lot of fuel and shells + spare parts ( yes , Panzer Corps has a magic button that replenishes everything at once ) ? After all, half of the tanks were abandoned by the crews precisely for breakdowns, lack of fuel and ammunition .....

P.S. XS how will the online translator translate it all, I will write it in Russian)



Всего один вопрос будет ли у танков много горючего и снарядов + запчастей ( да в Panzer Corps есть волшебная кнопка которая пополняет все сразу ) ? Ведь половину танков бросили экипажи именно за поломок , нехватки топлива и боезапасов .....


P.s. ХЗ как это все переведет онлайн переводчик напишу это и на русском )

fgiannet wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:47 am I would probably upgrade 75% to the 76mm and 25% to the 122mm. I would not upgrade any artillery to mortars because of their low ammo stats. The mortars have great SA values but their lack of range will limit their utility. I want the option to use artillery defensively or offensively even if there is a penalty for shooting farther than 1 hex (it can still reduce entrenchment). If the mortars have a higher ROF I might consider their use but it is very challenging to take artillery out of the line and send them to the rear during your mod of Barbarossa. It would be difficult to invest that time in a range limited artillery unit. Lower SA values in artillery does not seem to be as detrimental as with direct fire units in my experience.

Thanks for the answer.
Interesting opinion.
I think I will increase the mortars ROF to 12 and reduce the cost from 90 to 80.

When a unit is only a defensive amount of ammunition is not so important, because he can always replenish them.
The use of mortars in the attack, perhaps this is a matter of tactics. This is still waiting for its General))
I deliberately increased the mortar GD = 5 and CD = 2.
Plus Speed ​​= 2, possibly allows them to be used in some situations.
For example, with guaranteed destruction of an enemy unit in one turn. There will be no return fire on mortars.

fgiannet wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:47 am Speaking of artillery....I remember playing your mod and attacking a Wehrmacht infantry unit in a forest. It had nowhere to retreat and I wanted to force a surrender. Automatic entrenchment is 2 so....I had two conscripts attack before I used my artillery and sent in the regulars. It had to be done that way in order to remove the entrenchment and allow the artillery to be most effective. It was such a powerful example of some of the difficult decisions that had to be made during that critical time in history. Panzer Corps, with it’s standard equipment file and 10 strength units, never required me to make that tactical choice. Your mod brought that type of situation to life for the first time and reminded me of a quote by the great Rokossovsky: “They did not know their attack was a diversion, we couldn’t tell them, and their future losses weighed heavy on me” (I am paraphrasing because I do not remember the exact quote or where I read it).

Yes, there are different situations. This is great for the game.
For example, when you think that a column of battered retreating troops has already left the operational pocket, then something happens.
And they all die
Or some unit is blocked by the enemy and fights heroically to the end, but he has a lot of kills and an experience star.

uzbek2012 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:53 am Just one question will the tanks have a lot of fuel and shells + spare parts ( yes , Panzer Corps has a magic button that replenishes everything at once ) ? After all, half of the tanks were abandoned by the crews precisely for breakdowns, lack of fuel and ammunition .....

Soviet units do not have much fuel.
In the mod, the number of units is already calculated taking into account 50% of non-combat losses.
The Germans have enough strategic bombers to cope with the reduction of fuel and ammunition.
An interesting balance turns out.

Yes, I still added a T-35 with a strength of 5. For example, it has fuel = 7.

Returning to the question of artillery, which option would you choose?

I think max ammo 3 is a great restriction for an artillery unit and if it is like that I don't think I would purchase or upgrade many such units. Perhaps only 10-20% of my arty units or even less. It means that if it provides defensive fire to more than one adjacent friendly unit it likely runs out of ammo in every turn when these are attacked by the enemy repeatedly. On top of that if there is an enemy unit next (or above?) it can only get 2 (or just 1?) ammo when pressing the resupply button. And terrain (and bad weather?) can also affect it negatively. And then the noupgrade trait is yet another punch in the face for such a weak unit. So I think it would not be my favourite unit of choice.

And for the other two, I think the 76mm gun has only marginally more ammo than the 122mm one. 5 vs. 4 ammo is not a great difference and thus I would only buy or upgrade some of the 76mm gun, perhaps like 20-30% and then most would be the 122mm one. Even if it means that I have to wait more to get enough prestige to upgrade to it and I would be forced to use the understrength obsolete arty units longer. I think the 76mm gun should have 6 ammo at least to make it competative to the 122mm one.

The M1942 76mm gun looks nicer because of the AT mode, but again, it should have at least 6 ammo to compete the 122mm howitzer with 4 ammo.

Intenso82 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:08 pm

uzbek2012 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:53 am Just one question will the tanks have a lot of fuel and shells + spare parts ( yes , Panzer Corps has a magic button that replenishes everything at once ) ? After all, half of the tanks were abandoned by the crews precisely for breakdowns, lack of fuel and ammunition .....

Soviet units do not have much fuel.
In the mod, the number of units is already calculated taking into account 50% of non-combat losses.
The Germans have enough strategic bombers to cope with the reduction of fuel and ammunition.
An interesting balance turns out.

Yes, I still added a T-35 with a strength of 5. For example, it has fuel = 7.

Returning to the question of artillery, which option would you choose?

That there will be a T-35 tank is good)
https://vk.com/wall-151878956_1241645
https://masterok.livejournal.com/1101319.html
https://tankyvbou.blogspot.com/2011/07/35.html
https://historical-fact.livejournal.com/71107.html
http://militera.lib.ru/research/isaev_av2/07.html
https://en.topwar.ru/164522-tak-li-byl- ... kista.html

I see they suffered more from breakdowns, lack of fuel and shells than from enemies (

I haven 't decided about the artillery yet ) For example , sometimes take the same Sirotiinin ....

Sirotinin - he was given the honor of the enemies
https://en.topwar.ru/11280-sirotinin-em ... vragi.html

The legend of Nikolai Sirotin and the true story of the battalion Commander Nikolai
https://masterok.livejournal.com/951557.html

P.s.
Слышал та же противотанковая 45 мм пушка называлась «Прощай Родина» ) Впрочем как и первые ВДВ носили в начале негласное название « Вряд ли Домой Вернешься » ))

I heard the same anti-tank 45 mm gun was called "Farewell to the Motherland") However, like the first airborne troops, they had an unspoken name at the beginning "You are unlikely to Return Home"))

Intenso82 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:00 pm I think I will increase the mortars ROF to 12 and reduce the cost from 90 to 80.

It is interesting that the Zis-3 is repeatedly listed as having a rate of fire up to 25 rounds per minute (rpm). Even if the average crew’s rpm is lower, maybe only the best crews can achieve 25 rpm, they most likely have a much higher rate of fire than comparable German Artillery and 120mm Soviet Mortars. At 20 rounds per minute, if those numbers are based on a direct fire role, it would fire 25% faster than the 7.5cm PAK 40 but never seems to receive significant ROF bonuses. I understand having 120mm mortars fire faster for gameplay reasons but your mod typically keeps much closer to historical facts....although I am probably forgetting something.....

McGuba wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:24 pm I think max ammo 3 is a great restriction for an artillery unit and if it is like that I don't think I would purchase or upgrade many such units. Perhaps only 10-20% of my arty units or even less. It means that if it provides defensive fire to more than one adjacent friendly unit it likely runs out of ammo in every turn when these are attacked by the enemy repeatedly. On top of that if there is an enemy unit next (or above?) it can only get 2 (or just 1?) ammo when pressing the resupply button. And terrain (and bad weather?) can also affect it negatively. And then the noupgrade trait is yet another punch in the face for such a weak unit. So I think it would not be my favourite unit of choice.

And for the other two, I think the 76mm gun has only marginally more ammo than the 122mm one. 5 vs. 4 ammo is not a great difference and thus I would only buy or upgrade some of the 76mm gun, perhaps like 20-30% and then most would be the 122mm one. Even if it means that I have to wait more to get enough prestige to upgrade to it and I would be forced to use the understrength obsolete arty units longer. I think the 76mm gun should have 6 ammo at least to make it competative to the 122mm one.

The M1942 76mm gun looks nicer because of the AT mode, but again, it should have at least 6 ammo to compete the 122mm howitzer with 4 ammo.

My version.
In 1941, several units were upgraded to 122mm M-30.

In 1942
If there is enough prestige for this:
Mortars - 10%
Leave the old arty - 20%
76mm Zis3 + AT - 35%
120mm M-30 - 35%

Maybe I'll add 6 Ammo for 76mm Zis3.
Although then there will be a big difference between the Zis3 and 152mm artillery with 3 Ammo.
In general, 6 ammo is more suitable for sides that did not have any problems with logistics.

Germany produced twice as many shells as the Soviets. This had a profound effect.

fgiannet wrote: Tue Nov 16, 2021 8:16 am

Intenso82 wrote: Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:00 pm I think I will increase the mortars ROF to 12 and reduce the cost from 90 to 80.

It is interesting that the Zis-3 is repeatedly listed as having a rate of fire up to 25 rounds per minute (rpm). Even if the average crew’s rpm is lower, maybe only the best crews can achieve 25 rpm, they most likely have a much higher rate of fire than comparable German Artillery and 120mm Soviet Mortars. At 20 rounds per minute, if those numbers are based on a direct fire role, it would fire 25% faster than the 7.5cm PAK 40 but never seems to receive significant ROF bonuses. I understand having 120mm mortars fire faster for gameplay reasons but your mod typically keeps much closer to historical facts....although I am probably forgetting something.....

One accurate hit is better than 25 rounds per minute.