Slitherine

Hey Guille, thanks for posting this. I enjoy hearing people's different ideas about how to implement changes to the game we all love and love to mod.

I think all your ideas presented here would work well. In fact, I know they would because I've implemented most of them in my own personal mod. We have about the same idea of what results we want to see, just different ways of getting there.

I'll share how I decided to implement my changes but it was an evolving process.

I moved armored trains into the artillery class a long time ago. It felt wrong that they couldn't provide supporting fire. But I also felt units like the Gustav were just too mobile, too easy to use and shouldn't be able to support adjacent units. When AKRebel came out with those nice siege artillery units, I didn't want them providing support fire either. So I took the armored train class (#18) that was now empty and renamed it, making it a siege artillery class. This class is hard-coded to suppress the enemy but won't provide supporting fire.

For units in my new siege artillery class, I provide a transport switch. For trains [Gustav, 28cm(E)], I switch it to the train class (#17) for movement and they have no active attack. The icon could be the same only with the gun lowered (which I haven't done yet). For guns, I switch to a land transport (#14) for movement and no active attack, using the biggest truck icon I can find. For smaller rail guns (17cm or less), I'm leaving them alone for now; no switch, can move and fire but no supporting fire.

Ok, I think I'll end this post for now. I will add some screenshots later that might explain my ideas it better.

But going back to your ideas, I think your last point was the most radical, and therefore the most interesting idea. I will have to consider it (and perhaps do some testing) but it seems you could use either class #18 or #9(strat) and get the same result. Though I'm not sure if the suppression rates are the same. Do you happen to know? Anyway, thanks for the discussion.

Here's a pic of my purchase screen showing the siege artillery class. Please forgive the purchase icon, art is not my strong suit.

And here's a pic of the eq file, modified to fit. Still testing values. New siege guns courtesy of the PAK-mod.

Thank you Cw for your comments and detailed information about your modding works!

I did not know that unit class #18 also provided long term suppression. Being this is the case, there is no need to migrate the siege artillery units from that unit class to another one. Still, I would like to separate armored trains (specially because I would like to add several units in this category, instead of just one unit) from units placed in the regular artillery class. If we want to do this, armored trains can be placed in the "unused" (and made "purchasable") structure class (we would need to change its little icon).
Thinking about this last idea, classing armored trains as structures would make them very vulnerable to any unit with the "fortkiller" trait... So, why not just make a new unit class specially for armored train type units in their direct fire switch? I think this is possible (I added a new "command" type unit class in my modded installation of Pz Corps).

Again, armored trains would be made switchable between a primary "tactical" (direct fire, 0 range) switch (just like any armored vehicle, but just moving on rail lines) and a secondary "no purchase" switch putting them in the Artillery class to give the ability to provide defensive fire and longer range fire (I already made the suitable icons set with elevated and zero elevation gun barrels for the vanilla game armored train icons).

About your gun data, I would correct some values in the range tables. For example, if I am not mistaken, the 60 cm Karl had a range of just 6 km, and 10 km for the longer barreled 54 cm version, the 42 cm M-Gerat (better known as "Big Bertha") also had a range of 9 km aprox. So, I think all those units would be better represented with a 2 hex range.

For use in my mod, I designed the following, "non-linear" range table

Artillery Range Table
0-4000 m 1 hex
4000-10000 m 2 hexes
10000-18000 m 3 hexes
18000-30000 m 4 hexes
30000-45000 m 5 hexes
45000-60000 m 6 hexes
60000+ m 7 hexes

Thanks for your ideas and suggestions!

Considering your goal of adding more armored trains to your arsenal, I think your idea of adding a new class as the "primary" and using "artillery" as the secondary sounds like it would work; unless you wanted them to be vulnerable to "fortkillers"? The only drawback to new classes is that they don't have any hard-coded traits like the vanilla classes; only what you can add thru the "trait" commands. I had not thought of using armored trains like a tank unit; more food for thought.

Yeah, I have not really gone over the range and attack values on some of these. None of these units are my own creation but borrowed from vanilla or mods from others. Guess I better get to work. Thanks again!

Yes armored trains could fight enemy tanks and planes they could also shoot into the distance if the weapons allowed ! If I understand you completely correctly because I use an online translator and it is not always correct !

https://www.rubaltic.ru/context/0103201 ... noy-armii/
https://www.e-reading.life/bookreader.p ... ezdov.html

Cw58, and Uzbek (thanks for joinig the discussion!):

It is not a problem for me to use an all new unit class without hardcoded traits for grouping armored trains. After all, if we need to use any of the working traits on said units, we can just add it by writing it down in the eqp file. Also is a good thing for me that armored trains are NOT specially vulnerable to engineers and other "fortkiller" units. So, the advantages of this approach are two-folded!

I tested using switchable armored trains with both functions: as direct attack units, and as artillery support units and they work very well... But I must admit that I use them much more in its artillery role because they defence values are not as good as the best tanks available in 1939 and 1940 campaigns (the ones where I tested armored trains). Besides, this double function gives more usefulness to a little used unit class. I my personal mod, armored trains are purchasable units, also available as Elite (purchasable) units and as SE "gift" units.

Besides, there are documented battles between tanks and armored trains in direct fire short range fire fights in the eastern front. So a direct fire armored train unit is not, in my opinion, an "un-historical" unit.

Cw58: Confim me please if unit class #18 (Armored train) has the long term supression trait (lsup) hardcoded the same as strategic bombers, or I just misunderstood you... That would be veeery nice!

Another idea for "fleshing out" the armored train unit class...

An infantry carrier armored train! That would be a switchable unit (not surprisingly!!) between an armored rairoad unit (hard target, armed with just machine guns) switchable into a special "railway defense" infantry type unit, useful for guarding railways from attack by partian units in rearguard zones. The railroad infantry car could be based in some images just like the ones attached here...

@Uzbek, yes, you understood correctly. And thank you for the links you post, always very interesting

@Guille
Here's a couple screenshots show a Karl-Gerät 040 that has been moved to class 18 (still range of 3, sorry ); I couldn't use the armored train as it has already been moved to class 4. Notice the "Armour. Train" after the name on the "Unit Detail" pic.

I have tried without success to change the "Armour. Train" tag to "Siege Artillery". I changed the string text file and everywhere else I could think of. All of other areas of the mod say "Siege Artillery", just not on this detail page.

I actually have a lot more rail units than I thought; they're just scattered throughout many different classes. After your earlier suggestions, rather than making an entirely new class, I'm thinking of re-purposing the train class (#17) as the primary class (movement mode) and then using switches to get into a 2nd or even 3rd class (combat mode), i.e. AA, artillery, etc. What do you think about that?

I forgot to mention that I like your idea of the infantry car. I actually have a unit like that but I don't really have an appropriate icon.

Hello Cw58:

Thanks for giving, quick, intelligent and interesting answers to my various crazy rumblings posted here.

Your idea of using the #17 unit class slot (transport train) for grouping several armored train units is excellent. We just have to mod this class as being a purchasable one instead of making a separate new unit class. This Train unit class slot is ideal for grouping all railroad primary units in one purchase screen for the sake of a better available units visibility. Then, by way of different switches we can "position" the different railroad units in their "natural" unit classes (artillery, etc...) while in game. Thanks for the idea!!

The "Armour. Train" tag present in the unit info screen: Not a big problem... I remember also having problems with trying (and not achieving) to change some texts labels present in determined parts of the game UI. This is not a game breaker.

Armored train infantry carrier car: May be we can ask Phcas and his partners to make an icon for such a unit, when they have time. Even, giving that I am quarantined at home here in Argentina, I could gather the will to assemble my new Desktop computer to be able to star making icons again!

Greetings!!

Also... you can consider adding the 54 cm Karl Gerat 41 gun to your roster, which, according to wikipedia has a range of just 10 060 m (11000 yd), and according to my range table it would just reach the 3 hex range mark. Of course, it fired a much lighter projectile than the 60 cm version (so, it would have less attack values).

It can also be transported by train but we do not need a driver of shells because we have a button in the options that charges everything
http://oruzhie.info/artilleriya/591-karl-mortira

An icon for the Karl Gerat railroad transporter would be really cool...

Thanks for the new icons. )

A heavy hitting, long range (37 km, according to Wikipedia) artillery piece, dedicated to all the heavy artillery enthusiasts around here!
The icon for the 24 cm Kanone 3.

Enjoy!!

Ah remained that would still the infantry could get out of the armored cars ! And it will just be a universal train that can fight enemies at close range, at a distance and drive enemy planes in the air )

Here is an icon for the Karl Gerat Rail Transporter...

Nice Guille! As you know more about this transporter than me (I didn't know it existed ), what would you suggest for a movement rate?