Slitherine

awesome most changes look good! Too bad entrenchment got lowered, but I guess it gave too much trouble. I did like its effect on making lines more resilient though.

Umeu wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:16 pm but I guess it gave too much trouble. I did like its effect on making lines more resilient though.

I was thinking about further lowering the assault-stats on units or technologies to compensate but then wasn't sure about where to start.

Robotron wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:25 pm

Umeu wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 5:16 pm but I guess it gave too much trouble. I did like its effect on making lines more resilient though.

I was thinking about further lowering the assault-stats on units or technologies to compensate but then wasn't sure about where to start.

are you sure that increasing the barbed wire from 2 to 3 was causing some of the issues? You released a version at some point where barbed wire was even 4, and I think it worked fine as well.

raising base hex entrenchment might otherwise be something to look at, though it'll slow down the 1914 opening phases too, so might not be great either.

Barbed Wire with entrenchment multiplier 3 was working as was Pillbox with multiplier 4, the problem came with Concrete Dugouts at multiplier 5.

The scrapped V16 also had Concrete Dugouts at 5 and had the same kind of problems as V17 with Concrete Dugouts at 5.

Something in the scripts does not react kindly to entrenchment multipliers being greater than 4.

I'll repeat the announcement about V18.0 just to make sure anybody too lazy to check the last few posts is aware of it:

V18.02 for your special enjoyment:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Wnatcu ... agTaa/view

Before jumping right into multiplayer I'd strongly suggest to at least try a bit in singleplayer to flush out any leftover bugs.

You will not be able to continue any of your matches already in progress after applying the update!


Changes:

GERMANY
- removed "Tirpitz Plan" event in singleplayer vs CP AI because of AI suiciding the fleet anyway
- SMS Goeben spawns around Straits of Messina if played on turn 3 in multiplayer
- fixed Moltke from disappearing if "Violations of Neutrality" was chosen
- raised Dutch anger about losing province of Limburg after "Violations of Neutrality". German combat bonus reduced and limited to turn 3 only.
- fixed "For the Fatherland" event not showing up in CP event pool
- "Max Hoffmann" now unlocks after Hindenburg is in play and "Russian Wireless intercepted" was played
- CP chance to bring Sweden into war via "German-Swedish Alliance" is now 2% per invested INFLUENCE point on Sweden.
- "German Offensive in the East" combat bonus reduced and limited to 6 turns (was until winter before)
- "Wilhelm Groener" provides 25% chance to preserve a rail transport move upon use. Also fixed bug where bonus rail move was added to another nation than Germany.
- worsened the effect of "Food Crisis" and "Hunger Winter"
- *NEW* prevented Rupprecht from spawning in "Aufmarsch Ost"


AUSTRIA
- fixed Austrian generals not being removed from play if used on wrong fronts (Dankl, Brudermann, Auffenberg, Kusmanek)
- Austrian Siege Howitzers always consume 5 Austrian ammo to cause 2 extra damage, removed option to consume less ammo for less damage
- Austrian Siege Howitzers will also work on Swiss fortresses in Rupprecht scenario
- if Trento is ceded to Italy, the city is then occupied by an Italian Home Guard
- Trento reduced to city (was fortress before)


TURKEY
- "Fires in the Desert" (Senussi) can only be played as early as 6 turns after Britain has joined Entente. The 6 turn limit is lowered by 1 each time Entente plays either one of: "Anzac arrive in Egypt", "Kuwait Revolt" or "Abdan Oilfields"
- reduced number of Senussi units spawned
- probably fixed Turkey playing "Enver Pasha" right before being attacked by "Bergmann Offensive" and still having to pay PP for the troops which should be free because "Enver Pasha" was played. This must be tested in multiplayer though.
- reduced combat bonus for "Jihad"


BELGIUM
- in singleplayer vs Entente AI made the Belgian Reserve Corps at Ypres hold position if Brussels is captured on turn 3
- if Belgium is still neutral in 1915 the events to make Belgium susceptible to INFLUENCE or march through Belgium unlock earlier for Entente.
- if Entente enter Belgium via "Entente troops enter Belgium" event only Antwerp will remain under Belgian control


FRANCE
- fixed bug where French troops were still locked in place on turn 3 even in "Aufmarsch Ost" and "Rupprecht" scenarios
- general Joffre now auto-deploys to Alsace-Lorraine if unlocked
- moved general Lanrezac to Nancy in Rupprecht scenario
- "French Army of Africa" spawns at Marseille if played before turn 3 representing they used the time to travel to France. Risks meeting the Goeben though, causing damage.
- Gallieni's Army Corps spawns at higher unit strength
- Gallieni will now only max-entrench Entente units adjacent to Paris, this only works in multiplayer if "Marne Taxis" was played before, see PDF for all rules concerning Gallieni
- "Sacred Way" now only unlocks flamethrower tech in multiplayer


BRITAIN
- fixed Kuwaiti cavalry spawning on CP controlled hexes
- fixed "HMS Hampshire" event causing 177 collapse points on Britain
- if "Murmansk Convoys" was played by Entente, Britain can "send" PP and AM via the diplomatic screen, using up naval transport capacity
- "Forcing the Straits" (required to trigger the Gallipoli Lanbding) is available as early as February 1915 if Entente has gathered enough ships within a radius of 3 hexes around Anzak Koyu.
Four points worth of ships must be gathered with Dreadnoughts, Battlecruisers and Pre-dreadnoughts being worth two points and Light Cruisers or Armoured Cruisers one point.


RUSSIA
- Russia starts with higher ammo reserves (about 60)
- removed Russian steamroller bonus from "Aufmarsch Ost" scenario
- in "Aufmarsch Ost" moved a Russian Army Corps to protect Vilna, Zhilinksy spawns at Warsaw, all hexes near Warsaw receive max entrenchment, also added 2 Army Corps as emergency reserve at Omsk
- reduced Russian steamroller bonus after successful "Russian Surprise Attack"
- fixed "Full Russian Mobilization" not showing up in Entente pool
- in singleplayer vs Entente AI 2 Russian Reserve Corps spawn at the Caucasus border near Sarikamish if Turkey does not "surprise attack" the Russians with either "Shelling of Sevastopol" or "Jihad"


ITALY
- Gabriel Dannunzio more likely to be available for Entente but at reduced efficiency to prevent Italy to suddenly "jump" into joining Entente but at a slower speed
- fixed "Italian Offensive failed" showing up too often


BULGARIA
- removed maximum entrenchment bonus from "Bulgarian Trench Line" event because of unstable behavior


ROMANIA
If Russia surrenders and Romania is still neutral but pro-Entente then her alignment will reset to perfectly neutral


USA
- made US move faster toward joining Entente in "Aufmarsch Ost" scenario


MISCELLANEOUS
- reduced entrenchment tech stats back to vanilla stats to prevent game from crashing due to yet unknown problem. Lowered research time for 2nd entrenchment tech "Pillboxes".
- slightly reduced research time for Armoured Train techs.
- early Gas Masks have improved efficiency, reducing gas effects (less shock, less damage)
- fighting in Dunes or Desert terrain made worse for non-Arab troops. Units of at least veteran level or led by a commander are immune though.
- if a commander is wounded in battle, players will now be given the name in the popup-window
- "Diplomatic efforts" events be returned to the event pools 6 turns after being played, was 3 turns before.
- "Skilled Neogtiator" now also works like "Diplomatic efforts" and also increases INFLUENCE actions, so it never hurts to play him
- in the multiplayer-lobby: added info about challenge using a mod and about version number required to match the version number used by player hosting the challenge.

Playing Aufmarsch-Ost as the CP Russia seems as aggressive and powerful as before. I end up losing the Austrian border rather quickly and I end up losing enough units that I have to go on the defensive. I've only been able to capture Warsaw once and that was due to the AI making a mistake. Right now at least for me I don't think I can take the objectives by winter 1914.

First crash of the game when attacking a Russian cavalry unit.

(...)

Robotron wrote: ↑Sat Feb 04, 2023 6:08 pm Barbed Wire with entrenchment multiplier 3 was working as was Pillbox with multiplier 4, the problem came with Concrete Dugouts at multiplier 5.

The scrapped V16 also had Concrete Dugouts at 5 and had the same kind of problems as V17 with Concrete Dugouts at 5.

Something in the scripts does not react kindly to entrenchment multipliers being greater than 4.

So how does the bonus work exactly? Other upgrades seem to stack. But entrenchment bonus does not stack, rather the latest upgrade seems to multiply with the terrain bonus.

So we can maybe set barbed wire to 3, have pillboxes add some other sort of bonus (1 extra defense maybe) while keeping entrenchment at 3 also, and dugouts raise the level to 4?

Robotron wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 1:55 am @Wolf: good find, thank you for trying out the mod in singleplayer first.

Can I keep playing the game I was or start a new one?

Wolf001 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:05 am Can I keep playing the game I was or start a new one?

Keep playing, I just fixed the crash bug.

Wolf001 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:00 am Playing Aufmarsch-Ost as the CP Russia seems as aggressive and powerful as before. I end up losing the Austrian border rather quickly and I end up losing enough units that I have to go on the defensive. I've only been able to capture Warsaw once and that was due to the AI making a mistake. Right now at least for me I don't think I can take the objectives by winter 1914.

I thought maybe the entrenchment changed caused more agressive ai, or the steamroller bonus in ostmars. But both have been fixed. So kinda surprised. But the AI is indeed more agressive than what I've seen in v15.

Did you change anything, robotron? Or any idea why? In some ways, it's good, but they often overextend and it's easy to just cut them off. I sometimes have to force myself not to do it.

About objectives though, it might be considered that reaching your objectives is actually not the outcome which should happen most of the time. I think on the western front at least, the outcome should be just falling short of it, and reach it only under the most ideal circumstances. The most frequent outcome should be stalemate in the west. And in the east it should be too, I think. In v17 I was consistently able to capture warsaw in t1 or t2, but taking brest litovsk for option 2 was still really hard to do before christmas. I think that's pretty fair. (My only gripe was that it's way easier in MP because the ai gets way more units and can move them around quicker)

Umeu wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:02 am So how does the bonus work exactly? Other upgrades seem to stack. But entrenchment bonus does not stack, rather the latest upgrade seems to multiply with the terrain bonus.

So we can maybe set barbed wire to 3, have pillboxes add some other sort of bonus (1 extra defense maybe) while keeping entrenchment at 3 also, and dugouts raise the level to 4?

Entrenchment works like this:

Every hex terrain type (grassland, rough, desert, mountains etc.) has a set entrenchment value. For example: grassland 4, forests 3, desert 1 etc.

That entrenchment value is multiplied (not added!) by the currently researched entrenchment tech to give the maximum possible entrenchment value on a hex:
multiplied by 2 for Barbed Wire, 3 for Pillboxes and 4 for Concrete Dugouts as per the vanilla game.

The entrenchment value is raised by +10 if the hex has a fortress.

Entrenchment works as a bonus to any unit defense stat attacked by ground units and can be negated by ground unit assault stats (if artillery, naval or air units then by their bombard stat instead)

The maximum entrenchment value is set by the combat script at 18 and I believe the original coder had a good reason to do so because it will be likely linked to something in the AI scripts which I have not yet discovered why this will cause a crash if it gets too high.

Addition of defense value to the entrenchment techs would pretty sure f*ck up the AI calculations since it would mean a new value (extra defense) that was not designed to be in there.

It is still crashing for me Robotron both on the original save and a fresh game. I am playing the Rupprecht Plan and believe I know what the problem is. When I kill a Russian unit in East Prussia the Tannenberg Event is trying to trigger. But I haven't killed one Russian unit yet with the Germans only one with the Austrians. When I do try to kill a Russian cavalry unit with a strength value of five with a German unit the game crashes.

Wolf001 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:00 am Playing Aufmarsch-Ost as the CP Russia seems as aggressive and powerful as before. I end up losing the Austrian border rather quickly and I end up losing enough units that I have to go on the defensive. I've only been able to capture Warsaw once and that was due to the AI making a mistake. Right now at least for me I don't think I can take the objectives by winter 1914.

I thought maybe the entrenchment changed caused more agressive ai, or the steamroller bonus in ostmars. But both have been fixed. So kinda surprised. But the AI is indeed more agressive than what I've seen in v15.

The entrenchment value is currently the same as in V15. Anything else might be caused by slight randomization during your game, it could well be the AI behaves a lot more passive next game.
If not, let me know.

Did you change anything, robotron? Or any idea why? In some ways, it's good, but they often overextend and it's easy to just cut them off. I sometimes have to force myself not to do it.

Yes, the AI is sadly not clever enough to keep itself from getting cut off if it is too aggressive. I did not code the AI so I can't do anything about.

About objectives though, it might be considered that reaching your objectives is actually not the outcome which should happen most of the time. I think on the western front at least, the outcome should be just falling short of it, and reach it only under the most ideal circumstances. The most frequent outcome should be stalemate in the west. And in the east it should be too, I think. In v17 I was consistently able to capture warsaw in t1 or t2, but taking brest litovsk for option 2 was still really hard to do before christmas. I think that's pretty fair. (My only gripe was that it's way easier in MP because the ai gets way more units and can move them around quicker)

I agree that that for CP accomplishing the objective in 1914 should not be the most common outcome.
But against the AI it is difficult to prevent a clever human player from doing so unless you spawn a whole lot of Entente units out of thin air, which seems both cheap and unrealistic.
Against a human player it's even more difficult as the experience of the players usually makes a big difference and we don't MP challenges with options like "only veteran players accepted" etc.
So, in short, I don't understand what exactly you would like me to do?

Robotron wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:44 am

Wolf001 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:00 am Playing Aufmarsch-Ost as the CP Russia seems as aggressive and powerful as before. I end up losing the Austrian border rather quickly and I end up losing enough units that I have to go on the defensive. I've only been able to capture Warsaw once and that was due to the AI making a mistake. Right now at least for me I don't think I can take the objectives by winter 1914.

I thought maybe the entrenchment changed caused more agressive ai, or the steamroller bonus in ostmars. But both have been fixed. So kinda surprised. But the AI is indeed more agressive than what I've seen in v15.

The entrenchment value is currently the same as in V15. Anything else might be caused by slight randomization during your game, it could well be the AI behaves a lot more passive next game.
If not, let me know.

Did you change anything, robotron? Or any idea why? In some ways, it's good, but they often overextend and it's easy to just cut them off. I sometimes have to force myself not to do it.

Yes, the AI is sadly not clever enough to keep itself from getting cut off if it is too aggressive. I did not code the AI so I can't do anything about.

About objectives though, it might be considered that reaching your objectives is actually not the outcome which should happen most of the time. I think on the western front at least, the outcome should be just falling short of it, and reach it only under the most ideal circumstances. The most frequent outcome should be stalemate in the west. And in the east it should be too, I think. In v17 I was consistently able to capture warsaw in t1 or t2, but taking brest litovsk for option 2 was still really hard to do before christmas. I think that's pretty fair. (My only gripe was that it's way easier in MP because the ai gets way more units and can move them around quicker)

I agree that that for CP accomplishing the objective in 1914 should not be the most common outcome.
But against the AI it is difficult to prevent a clever human player from doing so unless you spawn a whole lot of Entente units out of thin air, which seems both cheap and unrealistic.
Against a human player it's even more difficult as the experience of the players usually makes a big difference and we don't MP challenges with options like "only veteran players accepted" etc.
So, in short, I don't understand what exactly you would like me to do?

I don't expect you to do anything? My post was largely aimed at Wolf, who was saying he couldn't achieve the objectives in 1914, though he did manage to achieve half of it, which I suppose is still pretty good.

I only asked you about if you changed something in the AI because overall, not just on 1 individual game basis, the AI seems changed. But if you didn't change anything or don't know what causes it, then that's the extent of my question.

The only thing I had wanted you to do regarding ostmars, was change the MP starting positons, and you made some changes. I'll try to test it in at least 1 but preferably more games to see if an army corps in Warsaw + earlier American entry is enough to balance things out a bit. But as you say, there aren't that many MP games to be had. And most don't finish.

btw, I dowloaded v18.01, but the MP checksum still shows v18.0, might get confusing at some point.

The AI is still playing Tirpitz plan in Aufmarsch-Ost if you are playing as the Entente.

Wolf001 wrote: ↑Sun Feb 05, 2023 3:05 am The AI is still playing Tirpitz plan in Aufmarsch-Ost if you are playing as the Entente.

I thought you asked me to remove Tirpitz from the scenarios where Britain was soon to join the Entente = Schlieffen + Moltke/Schlieffen?

(...)

Working now on one of my save games.