Slitherine

I like this idea sooo much...

Submarines, finally ...


Soviet submarines in different modes and many options for sea mines.
Thanks to McGuba and Guille for their support.

The combat actions of the submarine did not go beyond the Black and Baltic Seas and the North.
The ocean capabilities of submarines were not applicable here.
So in the beginning I decided to make two modes for the submarines.

Mode #1. Surface.
Cruising mode.
Class - capital ship
Spot = 1.
Speed ​​- high
AD - low.
There is an attack of ground units.

Mode #2. Periscope depth.
Patrol, attack.
Class - submarine.
Spot = 3 (since submarine in patrol mode).
Speed ​​- low.
AD - med.

+ Camo trait.

But I still think to add another mode of the so-called "Lie down on the bottom".
Quite often during the Second World War, Soviet submarines fell to the bottom for several days,
and if it turned out they went to the base.

But it still requires testing and other things.
We are very limited in the mechanics of PZC.
But I'm thinking to emulate a limited stay under water.
Having made that in this mode 30% of fuel per turn were lost.
Then for example boats of C-class, Shch -class can be in this mode of 3 turns and M-class only 2 turns.
After that, they may not have enough fuel to return to the base.

Therefore, i also need to think about add another mode - "Towing."
When a unit without fuel will be given a small number of points of movement, so he got to the base

I did not quite understand how the submarine detection mode works in PZC.
I was faced with the fact that the class of submarines is detected using spotting, even at long distances.
And probably after detection, the submarine will always be visible.
If you know how the submarine detection mode works, write.

Due to the fact that the submarines in the class submarine are often detected, I decided to add the Сamo trait.
Also I think it's essential to change the spotting system for all ships.
The principle will be that the capital ships BB, CA and destroyers - spotting will be reduced.
And for small ships such as boats, patrol ships are increased.

And I hope that the battles at sea will be more about finding the enemy than shooting at the enemy from afar.

OK. We return to our submarine which after the battle campaign got home.
By self move or after towing. And it has some damage.
What's next?
In this mod capital ships will not have the possibility of repair. It is necessary to operate capital ships carefully.

But the submarines will have several options.
They will have to be repaired during the scenario but it will be quite expensive.
Also I will try to make such a mechanic - when they can be repaired +1 per turn, through triggers
in a number of special ports in which there will be shipyards (not in all ports).
Then the repair will take some time. And the unit will be repaired only in the Surface mode which will make it a good target for enemy aviation

And of course there will be a repair between the scenario.
Initially a double independent prestige system was planned.
During the scenario prestige is spent on replacements and upgrades.
And between the scenarios prestige is spent on reforming and upgrading.
Moreover, the prestige between the missions will not be available after the start of the next scenario. Possibilities to accumulate prestige and then to spend at once will not be.
Therefore for an expensive repair for example a submarine between scenarios prestige is enough but during the scenario may not be enough.

I have such thoughts and ideas for today.

The switchable ships sound good, but the limited range of swiitches for cruisers reminded me that some countries used specialist AA cruisers - I'm unsure if this included your range of countries. I'd expect that these would have limited naval and ground combat abilities (presumably passive attacks only), but would provide AA defence to nearby units and have AA attack capability.

captainjack wrote:The switchable ships sound good, but the limited range of swiitches for cruisers reminded me that some countries used specialist AA cruisers - I'm unsure if this included your range of countries. I'd expect that these would have limited naval and ground combat abilities (presumably passive attacks only), but would provide AA defence to nearby units and have AA attack capability.

Yes, such AA Cruisers were in Britain and the US.
They could be found in the Atlantic, Mediterranean and the Pacific.
They were often used to escort convoys.

In Germany, perhaps, Niobe is suitable for AA cruisers role.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HNLMS_Gelderland_(1898)

The Soviets did not have this class.
But the battleships were the most equipped in AA defence.

Thanks for the info and link. I knew about the British and US AA cruisers but hadn't heard about the Niobe before.

But I still think to add another mode of the so-called "Lie down on the bottom".
Quite often during the Second World War, Soviet submarines fell to the bottom for several days,
and if it turned out they went to the base.

In the next version of the BE mod there will be shallow and deep sea hexes. Shallow seas will be where water depth is less than approximately 100 meters. Obviously in deep sea submarines will be able to dive deep and move, but not to attack (with the exception of the late war German Type XXI) as in the previous versions. In shallow seas submarines will still be able to dive deep (that is to land on the bottom of the sea), but will not be able to move when doing so. This tactic was used quite often and was also immortalized by the movie Das Boot.

But I'm thinking to emulate a limited stay under water.
Having made that in this mode 30% of fuel per turn were lost.
Then for example boats of C-class, Shch -class can be in this mode of 3 turns and M-class only 2 turns.
After that, they may not have enough fuel to return to the base.

I am not so sure that it is a good idea. Most submarines of ww2 could indeed spend just limited time underwater due to the limited capacity of the batteries used by their electric motors, but once they surfaced they could fully recharge the batteries in a few hours from their petrol/diesel engines and be ready for another dive. Therefore the time spent underwater did not really affect their overall patrol range.

I did not quite understand how the submarine detection mode works in PZC.
I was faced with the fact that the class of submarines is detected using spotting, even at long distances.
And probably after detection, the submarine will always be visible.
If you know how the submarine detection mode works, write.

As far as I know, basically any unit in the game, be it sea, air or ground, has a 50% chance to detect a "submarine" type unit within its spotting range. So for example if a submarine type unit is within the spotting range of three enemy units, there is a nearly 100% chance (precisely 88% if I am right, and 75% if there are two enemy units) that it will be spotted and become visible to the enemy. The distance does not seem to matter. And after being spotted the submarine does not remain visible. It can disappear again in the next turn, even if it does not move.

Due to the fact that the submarines in the class submarine are often detected, I decided to add the Сamo trait.

Yes, I did the same, but unfortunately the submarine class overrides the camo trait: submarine type units can be detected in the way as I described above, wheter or not they have the camo trait.
With other words, camo trait does not seem to work for submarines.

Also I think it's essential to change the spotting system for all ships.
The principle will be that the capital ships BB, CA and destroyers - spotting will be reduced.

Which might not be entirely correct: larger ships were more often equipped with radars than smaller ones. Initially Soviet warships had no radar but later the allies supplied them some and most larger vessels became radar equipped. Also, larger ships usually have a longer sighting range as they usually have a higher mast from which they can see the horizon further. And yet it is true that it is hard to spot small boats or surfaced submarines from a distance. So maybe small torpedo boats could get the camo trait - but then why not surfaced submarines as well? Because it would negate the effect of Allied radars - radar equipped Allied planes were responsible for the sinking of nearly half of the German U-boats. And the large majority of those were travelling on the surface when they were detected by an Allied air-to-surface radar before the U-boat could even hear the noise of the plane or see it.

McGuba wrote:In the next version of the BE mod there will be shallow and deep sea hexes. Shallow seas will be where water depth is less than approximately 100 meters. Obviously in deep sea submarines will be able to dive deep and move, but not to attack (with the exception of the late war German Type XXI) as in the previous versions. In shallow seas submarines will still be able to dive deep (that is to land on the bottom of the sea), but will not be able to move when doing so. This tactic was used quite often and was also immortalized by the movie Das Boot.

Yes it will be excellent.
But I'm focusing on the Soviet side. There are some differences.
Soviet submarines had a max depth of immersion significantly smaller. It's 60, 80, 90 meters according to the types of boats.
Therefore, here can use only the mode "Lie down to the bottom."
The seas where the operations took place were rather shallow. Although the depth in the Black Sea reached 2200 meters!
But in the northern part it was shallow.
Since I use shallow water and deep sea hexes for the role of freezing and ice. It will be necessary to try to combine it or choose one option.
Especially since there are some problems with freezing hexes and their boundaries

McGuba wrote: I am not so sure that it is a good idea. Most submarines of ww2 could indeed spend just limited time underwater due to the limited capacity of the batteries used by their electric motors, but once they surfaced they could fully recharge the batteries in a few hours from their petrol/diesel engines and be ready for another dive. Therefore the time spent underwater did not really affect their overall patrol range.

I agree, if you look at this side.
But I would like that there was a parameter which was a complex counter, it is oxygen and internal damage, fatigue of the crew.
Since I do not have another variable counter there is only a fuel.
It's like fuel in tanks, which reflects some more maintenance parameters.

Another aspect, I need to make naval battles less intense so that it was more historical.
In naval operations in these seas quite a short distance. And a number of boats have just ocean fuel reserves (360, 800).
Maybe they can refuel once in the scenario:)
To balance this, it is done with Ammo. With another such mechanics with Fuel.
But of course this is always a compromise if I had a separate counter for this, it was not necessary to invent all this

In the mode "lying on the bottom" the boat is unlikely to get fatal damage, but for this it is necessary to pay something.
And also I would like to simulate the situation of the decision when the fuel runs out and it is necessary to choose to surface under the enemy's fire or remain forever under water!
Although there have often been cases when submariners threw away some of the fuel to imitate that they were sunk.
But I don `t know whether these were special barrels with fuel or used fuels tanks

McGuba wrote:As far as I know, basically any unit in the game, be it sea, air or ground, has a 50% chance to detect a "submarine" type unit within its spotting range. So for example if a submarine type unit is within the spotting range of three enemy units, there is a nearly 100% chance (precisely 88% if I am right, and 75% if there are two enemy units) that it will be spotted and become visible to the enemy. The distance does not seem to matter. And after being spotted the submarine does not remain visible. It can disappear again in the next turn, even if it does not move.

Thank. It is interesting. But this mechanics looks bad. Not very suitable for global mods.
Let's highlight the fact that the distance does not matter. This is problem
Hmm, I was already thinking about adding a firing range of 2 to the submarines. Maybe it's worth considering again

McGuba wrote:Yes, I did the same, but unfortunately the submarine class overrides the camo trait: submarine type units can be detected in the way as I described above, wheter or not they have the camo trait.
With other words, camo trait does not seem to work for submarines.

I saw it now, too.
At first, I was thinking add camo trait to the submarines in mode - "Surfaced".
But сamo completely suppresses the detection of aviation which will not be natural.

The problem is that the submarine is detected by aviation in the sub-mode.
Of course, can make the regime "lie down" in the class capital ships + camo + give big air and naval defence.
Then the aircraft will not be able to detect it, the ships will find out close, but they will not be able to kill. This mode of semi-immortality.

That's one of the reasons why I decided to recalculate the detection range from the ships.

McGuba wrote:Which might not be entirely correct: larger ships were more often equipped with radars than smaller ones. Initially Soviet warships had no radar but later the allies supplied them some and most larger vessels became radar equipped. Also, larger ships usually have a longer sighting range as they usually have a higher mast from which they can see the horizon further. And yet it is true that it is hard to spot small boats or surfaced submarines from a distance. So maybe small torpedo boats could get the camo trait - but then why not surfaced submarines as well? Because it would negate the effect of Allied radars - radar equipped Allied planes were responsible for the sinking of nearly half of the German U-boats. And the large majority of those were travelling on the surface when they were detected by an Allied air-to-surface radar before the U-boat could even hear the noise of the plane or see it.

By the beginning of the war, the radar seemed to be on only one Soviet cruiser. As far as I know.
Then in 43, several Soviet ships were modernized in England.
I do not have exact data here.
Rather, it was already in the late phase of the war.
But what did this radar represent? 30 km for detection of surface targets and 100 km for air targets.
We do not have such a thing as detection of air targets.
And 30km in my mod corresponds to 2 hexes.

Also I counted on the calculator taking the height of the mast of the battleship and the range of visibility was about the same 30km.
Practically this is not affected by the size of the target.
These are the same 2 hex.

As for the range of the other ships.
I have such logic.
One naval unit represented:
Battleship - 1 pcs.
Cruiser - 2 pcs.
Destroyer -10 pcs.
Submarine - about 20 pcs.
Boats - 30-40 pcs.

Accordingly, the battleships-cruisers have a short detection range.
And already submarines, boats can disperse and have a much greater range due to the number of units.

As for the destroyers, of course it would be good for them to make two modes of formation of concentration and dispersal for search (in which there will be less defence and attack, but more detection radius).
But I'm afraid AI will not understand how to use it. And for the Soviets it is unlikely to be in demand.

And why did you add a surface mode for submarines in the Recon class?

Soviet submarines had a max depth of immersion significantly smaller. It's 60, 80, 90 meters according to the types of boats.
Therefore, here can use only the mode "Lie down to the bottom."
The seas where the operations took place were rather shallow. Although the depth in the Black Sea reached 2200 meters!

Yes, that is the problem: as you described it Soviet submarines would be able to "land" on the bottom of the sea even if it is like 2000 meters deep. And your map contains a large part of the Black Sea with such depths, and even though most operations indeed took part in the shallow waters, what would prevent the players from entering the deeper parts and "land"?

Although there have often been cases when submariners threw away some of the fuel to imitate that they were sunk.
But I don `t know whether these were special barrels with fuel or used fuels tanks

Submarines did not really carry fuel in barrels. They had fuel tanks. When they wanted the enemy to think that they were gone, sometimes they just opened some valves and released some fuel from their fuel tanks. They were also able to dump rubbish, cloths and rags and stuff like that through the torpedo tube so that the enemy would think that the submarine had been destroyed and pieces of the equipment were surfacing. Sometimes it worked, sometimes did not. It had the disadvantage that it made a clear sign on the surface where the submarine was and all the destroyers had to do is to conduct a thorough sonar search in that area and if they found the submarine again they could drop a lot of deapth charges on it. Usually they did so, anyway, just to make sure. It was quite difficult for the surface ships to determine if a submarine was killed or not. So when they saw the debris and oil on the surface they stayed for some time more, searching with the sonar and listening with the hydrophones and dropping some more charges at that area. Also they checked the debris on the surface: if they found human parts like limbs and stuff they could be almost sure that the sub had been destroyed. So it was not so easy to trick the sub hunters with this tactic.

As for the range of the other ships.
I have such logic.
One naval unit represented:
Battleship - 1 pcs.C
Cruiser - 2 pcs.
Destroyer -10 pcs.
Submarine - about 20 pcs.
Boats - 30-40 pcs.

Accordingly, the battleships-cruisers have a short detection range.

I like your logic and I used a very similar one, but there is one more factor to consider: larger German warships usually had at least 1-2 naval recon planes which could search the area around the ship increasing its detection range. The Germans had the Ar 196, I am not sure though, whether the Soviets had a similar system.

And why did you add a surface mode for submarines in the Recon class?

For scipting reasons. Capital ships like battleships standing on the Allied convoy routes can trigger the spawning of similar Allied warships to get rid of them. So that the player has to use U-boats, which only have recon and submarine class, in the War of Atlantic if he wants to avoid more enemy battleships to appear. Otherwise U-boats would also trigger to spawning of the same enemy battleships. But now that you wrote this I think I can come up with a more elegant solution and put surfaced Axis subs back to capital ship class.

McGuba wrote: ↑Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:31 pm Yes, that is the problem: as you described it Soviet submarines would be able to "land" on the bottom of the sea even if it is like 2000 meters deep. And your map contains a large part of the Black Sea with such depths, and even though most operations indeed took part in the shallow waters, what would prevent the players from entering the deeper parts and "land"?

I will need to add a depth map. Similar that you did in your mod. Unfortunately we only have deep water and shallow water.
As I wrote earlier, these hexes are also used for ice and it will be necessary to make a choice as to what will be used.
In order to limit lying on the bottom only in shallow-water hexes we can use different types of movement for different modes of submarines. The same principle as landing aircraft on airfields.

PS. Although there may be problems with cyclic switching of modes, it is necessary to test.

McGuba wrote: ↑Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:31 pm It was quite difficult for the surface ships to determine if a submarine was killed or not

I would like for such diving the boat disappeared from the field of visibility.

McGuba wrote: ↑Tue Jul 03, 2018 1:31 pm I like your logic and I used a very similar one, but there is one more factor to consider: larger German warships usually had at least 1-2 naval recon planes which could search the area around the ship increasing its detection range. The Germans had the Ar 196, I am not sure though, whether the Soviets had a similar system.

Сoastal battles and ocean battles are different.
Of course, I do not plan to reduce the radius of detection of German capital ships.

As for seaplanes on ships from the Soviets, work was carried out before the war with the Germans over catapults. There were a small series of seaplanes.
But during the war they were never used for their intended purpose. They operated from stationary airfields.
And there was no such need near there was a large number of airfields.

But when a players play for the Soviet side, despite these restrictions, he can combine units and receive intelligence information from different units of ships and aircraft.
But the computer does not. Therefore, it is hardly worth reducing the detection radius to the side for which AI plays.

Intenso82 wrote: ↑Wed Jul 04, 2018 7:39 am I will need to add a depth map. Similar that you did in your mod. Unfortunately we only have deep water and shallow water.
As I wrote earlier, these hexes are also used for ice and it will be necessary to make a choice as to what will be used.

Maybe you could use another terrain type for the icy water, an otherwise unused terrain, for example rough desert. Then you can add which units can move on it and how. Just an idea.

I decided to add a Soviet Radio reconnaissance unit (based on a slightly modified Sov. HQ Phcas icon, even the map was still on the table in the truck).
There will be two modes. Mode of movement with spotting 0 and mode of radio reconnaissance with spotting 4 and 0 movement. But the unit is very weak.
Of course this will be another unique unit.

Switching between modes takes one turn. Just this time takes interception of radio messages and their subsequent analysis.
I would also like to add such class of units for Germany (one unit in each army group), but the AI ​​is not able to use them correctly.
Maybe someday in the multiplayer version...

Torpedo bombers.


For the Soviets, these are two units of DB-3T and its further evolution Il-4T.
The maximum strength in them will be reduced and equal to 8 because units were very few.

Two switch-modes are planned for the Soviet torpedo bombers.
1- Torpedo mode. Low torpedo attack + top-mast bombing (I do not know the correct term).
The unit is in the class of a tactical bomber, so when attacking he will get a Penalty Low altitude attack.
Also he will have reduced defence from AA and AD.
But there will be a fairly high naval attack (relative to others).

In general, although it is not a kamikaze, it is a very risky mode. With a not very good result.

2 - Bombing. Level bombing + High torpedoes attack. (meaning the release at high altitude).
A unit in the class of a strategic bomber.
Although there will be no penalty and there will be higher AA defence parameters.
The naval attack will also be very modest only 1 or 2.
But it will be more safe.

For the Germans there will be torpedo bombers He-111H and Ju-88A(later).
I want to add for them only a Air-over-Sea type of movement, but this still requires testing the AI.
Soviet torpedo bombers were often used in land attacks, so they will not have such movement limits.

Nice Idea!

But you have to note that for a torpedo attack, the only way was to launch the torpedoes from low to very low level flying aircraft. Except for some types of gliding torpedoes, the regular torpedoes broke down if entering the water at the very high speed they took if launched from high altitude.

By the way, I was thinking about modding the torpedo planes with the same capability they had in Pacific general, which was to be able to launch torpedoes not only from the same hex where the target ship was, but also from adjacent hexes (providing that both the hex where the aircraft launched the torpedo and the target ship are water hexes). To provide for this I thought it would be necessary to give the torpedo bomber with an in-flight switch to the same unit plane but with a different type of movement type, allowing it to fly only over water for the torpedo launching run.
This possibility makes "a reality" in the game the tactic of combining the attack of dive bombers (from the same hex) and torpedo bombers from and adjacent hex to ships in the same turn.

Example:

Switch 1: Aircraft in regular flight en route to target. It can fly over land and water, naval and ground attack = 0 (just with the vanilla air movement type).
Switch 2: Aircraft in torpedo attack run. It has to be flying over water to make this in-flight switch, it can fly only over water hexes

This "system" allows the modder to tweak the unit stats (mainly Air and Ground Defense) giving them different values while when in ferry flight and when taking the final low level attack run.
Unfortunately, I could not find a way to give aircraft a range of 1 hex instead of the regular zero attack range. Incidentaly, this range = 1 feature would be a nice feature for "flying gunship aircraft" (aircraft with large caliber guns) to be able to attack land (or even air) targets from outside the range of the targets defensive weapons. Trying to give aircraft class 4 (artillery) did not yield positive results. It seems that the game, overrides the range value higher that 0 when a unit has air movement...

I have one more test to do: to create a new, non purchasable unit class: "Torpedo plane" and giving units in this class a range = 1, and see what results from this. IDEA! --> Combine the previously written in this line with a new move typr different from the vanilla air movement type!! Definitely, more testing is needed.

guille1434 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:57 pm But you have to note that for a torpedo attack, the only way was to launch the torpedoes from low to very low level flying aircraft. Except for some types of gliding torpedoes, the regular torpedoes broke down if entering the water at the very high speed they took if launched from high altitude.

The Soviet side had torpedoes for release from a height of about 2000 meters, where a parachute system was used.
Also it was done with a decent distance and the risk of being shot down from the anti-aircraft fire was significantly less.
But of course the accuracy was close to 0. But sometimes they managed to hit the target.
Also for this torpedo strike serious pilot skills were not required.

Another interesting fact is that not one of the battleships that were in the open sea was sunk by dive bombers.

guille1434 wrote: ↑Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:57 pm Unfortunately, I could not find a way to give aircraft a range of 1 hex instead of the regular zero attack range. Incidentaly, this range = 1 feature would be a nice feature for "flying gunship aircraft" (aircraft with large caliber guns) to be able to attack land (or even air) targets from outside the range of the targets defensive weapons. Trying to give aircraft class 4 (artillery) did not yield positive results. It seems that the game, overrides the range value higher that 0 when a unit has air movement...

Another sad news, after the submarines.
Although in the Akkula mod Modern Conflicts I saw the F-22 with shooting range = 2.

I think in PZC2 there will be a similar special trait - Torpedo bomber.

Hello Intenso!

Here are some variations on the Hurricane with red propeller spinner and an entire red nose, in flight and landing attitude. Very interesting the modification made by the Soviets on the Hurricane armament, have you any references on those modified aircraft?

About ships sunk by dive bombers: I cannot remember right now if there was or not specifically one or more battleships sunk by dive bombers alone in open seas, but I can say that there were a few of them sunk by combined action of dive and torpedo bombers... Think about Yamato, for example, not to name also a few carriers that suffered that fate. I will check how did Akkula managed to give fighers a range = 2 in his mod. Thanks for the head up!

And the remaining one...

guille1434 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:37 pm Here are some variations on the Hurricane with red propeller spinner and an entire red nose, in flight and landing attitude. Very interesting the modification made by the Soviets on the Hurricane armament, have you any references on those modified aircraft?

Yeah, of course, I meant the red propeller spinner
Thanks!

Maybe only this Hurricane references https://warthunder.com/en/news/4008/current/
https://wiki.warthunder.com/index.php?t ... k_IIB_Ussr

guille1434 wrote: ↑Thu Jul 26, 2018 4:38 pm And the remaining one...

phcas wrote: ↑

Your icon with a red nose, pushed me to an interesting idea.
It was a long time ago, but it seems now it's time.

Considering our past discussion about aircraft icons in landing mode.
Inspired by the work of Akkula, with a huge number of units with different camouflage.
And also inspired by the works of Phcas, German planes with its additions look great.
I would like that the Soviets also had a clear line of air units, with various visual improvements.

Maybe You and Phcas will be interested in making a Mega pack of almost all Soviet aviation?
I could do some research, make a list of the units and the necessary camouflage and visual signs.
It would be a connected system.

In addition to camouflage, can change the "spinner", as well as some elements of the aircraft in a different color.
And for some models add additional signs.
And having already these improved models you can make icons in the landing mode.

Various color schemes would also allow the inclusion of some modifications of Soviet aircraft, which otherwise are difficult to distinguish.

Of course, count me in to help with this big project. I would also like to see a big mega-pack of soviet air units.
Personally, I like unit icons with less markings that the ones present in Phcas-style icons, but I also think his units are awesome. So I don't see any problem in working all together to achieve very positive results.
Send me your ideas when you can!

Now having a larger number of AI zones, one can greatly reconsider the strategy of AI behavior.
And it will be necessary to rethink many things.

For example, I like the McGuba idea about the city with 2 modes (with and without upgrade).
Now having these additional zones for AI, in addition to the existing in mod scripted upgrade hex, which is already in the rear,
I can add other cities or zones in the rear, in which the upgrade of units will be available.
And now these zones can be moved to the East as the Germans advance.
Also, such cities or zones can be designated as a special marker.