Slitherine

Advanced Player Skool - Lesson 1

Q. Should I attack or assault a suppressed neighbouring Para? Or do something completely different?
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=38844&start=240#p365714

Answer

Congrats gentlemen. Top of the class all of you!

Yep, the first trick is to ignore the 89% in the assault stats... BA's assault methodology is flaky... Essentially, an assault is a dice throw... But throw the wrong side of that dice and you'll get mauled, no matter how much that shouldn't happen...

The second trick is the morale -25... Attacking any immediately neighbouring unit with morale<0 will trigger it to surrender immediately... So the whole discussion on reaction fire or not is irrelevant... Attack it and it's gone... 100% gone (so that 89% assault success isn't looking so good any more, right?)

The PzIV was a curveball... I'd already said that I'd attacked the para with the tank to reduce its morale to <0... So no more shots from that source, I'm afraid... The Vickers MG will take a pop at you, but to take a para's surrender, it's worth it...

Of course the exception to the rule is the one that's probably giving you most grief right now. Units in bunkers don't surrender even with morale<0... Sigh...

GottaLove88s wrote:
Of course the exception to the rule is the one that's probably giving you most grief right now. Units in bunkers don't surrender even with morale<0... Sigh...

In some cases they surrender at -100.

kingt wrote:

GottaLove88s wrote:
Of course the exception to the rule is the one that's probably giving you most grief right now. Units in bunkers don't surrender even with morale<0... Sigh...

In some cases they surrender at -100.

Isn't -100 the point at which you kill 'em? Maybe the game calls it a "surrender"? But it's an, ahem, belly ache, getting them down to -100...

Well, say you're on Gold and can't approach with infantry a bunker just yet but you know it's there, sometimes you see it. You keep shooting mortar and tank shells at it hoping to do damage and nullify any Rally bonus that may or may have not been applied when you don't see it.

kingt wrote:Well, say you're on Gold and can't approach with infantry a bunker just yet but you know it's there, sometimes you see it. You keep shooting mortar and tank shells at it hoping to do damage and nullify any Rally bonus that may or may have not been applied when you don't see it.

Lol... That sounds like the voice of recent experience!

Hey Volks,

I've been tinkering with the map so that we can see the progression of the campaign.

You can see it here - http://www.brummbar44.com/BattleAcademy/gjs_2012.php

Jon, could you please update your link as I won't be working with the old one anymore.

Hi B - as always, a superb map but even more so given the toggles.

Thanks B, Great update. Love the 1944 "military" fonts...

Have updated "Quick Jump Links" at the top of this post -> viewtopic.php?f=87&t=38844#p363505
Have also added a quick link to the RAF recon flights, so players can easily overview their battle maps at any time.

Players on Sword & Juno,

Mike has asked me to investigate what he believed to be a mapping error that prevented him from accessing important bunkers during the German deployment phase. I've looked into this, and unfortunately he's right. I had included a 5-row wide neutral zone between the two forces, as per a typical AFD in the rules... but this doesn't work for the landing beaches... either because it puts the Allies in the ocean, or because it denies critical bunkers to the Germans.

Consequently, I've revised the deployment zones for Sword and Juno, and emailed the updated .BSF files to all four players involved. For Juno, I'm afraid to say, this error is important enough that it requires a compulsory restart for that game. For Sword, it's optional. There is an accidental, easy path off Sword beach, that the Allies may have exploited. You'll know if you've done this. If you did, you should restart.

So for Juno, please swap in the emailed .BSF and restart guys. For Sword, please agree between each other whether you wish to restart or not, using the emailed .BSF. If you prefer, you can delete your existing campaign, and redownload. I have also updated our .CPF file on Dropbox.

Apologies Gentlemen. For the Allies, please put this down to a particularly easy landing practice somewhere in Cornwall. For the Germans, think of it as an overly demanding exercise for Rommel.

Mea culpa guys. Thanks for raising this asap, and thanks for your patience to permit me to fix it...

no problem that s ok i ve created a new one mike
thank you jon for this very fast correction

Hey, GL88s, I have a couple of questions for you regarding the future progress of the battles.

1) how do you plan to create the scenarios for maps like the recently finished Gold, where Allies control 2 flags while Germans hold on to three. What I'm interested is how the deployment would work, and whether you need screenshots to see how the Allied units' progress?

2) for maps such as Gold what are the rules of engagement? It's not exactly AFD, although Germans are still in their remaining defending positions. But since the Allies hold enough foothold, it should play out as ME, no? Even if it is AFD on Gold on June 7, the Germans don't have enough units left to outnumber 8/3, so this question is mainly for future situations and/or other beaches where we could end up with similar setups (3v2 flags in favor of Germans) but with German BG with at least 25, or more, units left.

3) There is an important multiple battle scenario which we have to talk about before it happens, as it could happen in the near future. The beach sectors hold more than one BG, so let's take Gold for example with a hypothetical scenario. What happens on June 7 if a German BG is order to attack Gold sector, while another Allied BG is ordered to land. All the while, the units engaged in Gold on June 6 would still be there. So we'd have two German units vs two Allied units. How would it play out? This is just in theory as it can't happen with the current BG deployment as there are no German units in reach of Gold.

But assuming it's 2 vs 2 BGs, how many battles are fought and how will they be fought?

Thanks!

@B, great map as always!

Thanks Mike for spotting and reporting. Jon, thanks for the fixes and thanks Ran for the restart.

One benefit is a little more time in Ulm with the missus.

kingt wrote:Hey, GL88s, I have a couple of questions for you regarding the future progress of the battles.

1) how do you plan to create the scenarios for maps like the recently finished Gold, where Allies control 2 flags while Germans hold on to three. What I'm interested is how the deployment would work, and whether you need screenshots to see how the Allied units' progress?

For special situations of landing beaches only, I will allocate territory for next battles according to the VP flags taken. So no screenshot required.

kingt wrote:2) for maps such as Gold what are the rules of engagement? It's not exactly AFD, although Germans are still in their remaining defending positions. But since the Allies hold enough foothold, it should play out as ME, no? Even if it is AFD on Gold on June 7, the Germans don't have enough units left to outnumber 8/3, so this question is mainly for future situations and/or other beaches where we could end up with similar setups (3v2 flags in favor of Germans) but with German BG with at least 25, or more, units left.

Beach landings where Allies won the right to stay without dissolution penalty are still played out as AFDs in the sense that Germans will get 25 units (if their defending BG has 25 left) and attacker will get 20 units (if attacker still has 20 left). However, territory will match the VP flags taken in the previous turn.

2nd BGs, landing that turn, will fight as AFDs with the same tenuous start as if they had just landed fresh.

kingt wrote:3) There is an important multiple battle scenario which we have to talk about before it happens, as it could happen in the near future. The beach sectors hold more than one BG, so let's take Gold for example with a hypothetical scenario. What happens on June 7 if a German BG is order to attack Gold sector, while another Allied BG is ordered to land. All the while, the units engaged in Gold on June 6 would still be there. So we'd have two German units vs two Allied units. How would it play out?

But assuming it's 2 vs 2 BGs, how many battles are fought and how will they be fought?

Thanks!

See 7.22 and 7.23... Let me know if these don't address the circumstance you have in mind?

7.2 Players will be able to select up to 20 units from any of the forces available to them in their BG's unit pool. Because BA force selection only permits both sides to choose the same number of units, GM's will "fix" the extra units if one side receives more than the other, eg. 5 units for the defender in a AFD.
7.21 If a player lacks confidence in his chances of surviving a coming battle, and has a safe neighbouring sector controlled by his side to withdraw to, he is not obliged to select the max.20-25 units for that battle. He may instead choose a small ambushing force of eg. 2x paras, 1x flamey, 1x 17pdr, and hide them somewhere in hope of taking out a couple of enemy tanks. Any non-assigned units will safely withdraw with the rest of his BG pool when he loses. The risk is that he must hold at least one flag at the end of the battle to avoid dissolution (two flags for Allies on landing beaches)... Sometimes Tiger brigades will swap places with Volksgrenadiers
7.22 Multifront battles - X vs 1 - When one BG faces attacks from multiple directions (or Germans facing two Allied BGs landing on the same beach), the defender will face his 1st attacker (decided by attacker's move priorities), and play that game... If the defender loses, he will withdraw, or is dissolved as normal... However, if the defender wins, any battle losses are removed from his BG unit pool, and he will then face his 2nd attacker with a reduced force selection.
7.23 Multifront battles - X vs Y - When one BG defends against attacks from multiple directions, but it is reinforced by a second BG (eg. Allies on landing beaches, or Germans in Vimont or Villers-Bocage), the 1st attacker will fight the original defender, the 2nd attacker will fight the 1st reinforcer, a 3rd attacker would fight a 2nd reinforcer or the original defender if there are no further reinforcements, etc.

kingt wrote:This is just in theory as it can't happen with the current BG deployment as there are no German units in reach of Gold.

Don't forget that the holder of Caen gets +1 moves for all of his BGs...

leci wrote:Thanks Mike for spotting and reporting. Jon, thanks for the fixes and thanks Ran for the restart.

One benefit is a little more time in Ulm with the missus.

Lol... Frohliche Geburtstag Frau Leci!

GottaLove88s wrote:
2nd BGs, landing that turn, will fight as AFDs with the same tenuous start as if they had just landed fresh.

That makes sense, unless Gold is reinforced by an attacking BG.

See 7.22 and 7.23... Let me know if these don't address the circumstance you have in mind?


7.22 Multifront battles - X vs 1 - When one BG faces attacks from multiple directions (or Germans facing two Allied BGs landing on the same beach), the defender will face his 1st attacker (decided by attacker's move priorities), and play that game... If the defender loses, he will withdraw, or is dissolved as normal... However, if the defender wins, any battle losses are removed from his BG unit pool, and he will then face his 2nd attacker with a reduced force selection.

That makes sense yes, but that's for X vs 1. On Gold, X Allied BGs would attack AFD against what defender.

7.23 Multifront battles - X vs Y - When one BG defends against attacks from multiple directions, but it is reinforced by a second BG (eg. Allies on landing beaches, or Germans in Vimont or Villers-Bocage), the 1st attacker will fight the original defender, the 2nd attacker will fight the 1st reinforcer, a 3rd attacker would fight a 2nd reinforcer or the original defender if there are no further reinforcements, etc.

This is where I have an issue figuring out how the battles are played. Let's stick with Gold and assume we have 2BG vs 2BG

1) June6GER BG defending against June6ALL BG attacking - played as AFD on June 7
2) June7GER BG reinforcing against June7ALL BG attacking - played as ??? on June 7. ME I suspect, but that wouldn't be exactly fair. But since June7GER is reinforcing AFD is not really fair either.

What happens if in 1) June6GER wins dissolving June6ALL but in 2) June7GER loses to June7ALL and withdraws. We'd have two BGs from opposing sides winners on the same sector. Would we have, in this case, a 3) June6GER vs June7ALL battle as what? How will be the flags distributed in a 3rd battle between the two sides especially since some flags may be hold by different sides in different battles.

The other example is also valid, when June6ALL and June7GER are winners in 1) and 2).

Too many permutations KT...

Let me explain with a few examples and hopefully we'll catch yours...

Gold - June 6th - 8/3 AFD v 857/346 - German victory but 8/3 holds 2 flags and is allowed to stay

Gold - June 7th - 8/3 and 857/346 are both still there - Allies are allowed up to 2 BGs on landing beaches, so they bring in another one, 9/3; so 8/3 gets another AFD v 857/346, 9/3 also gets an AFD v 857/346 (both of these deployments will be related to their flags held at the end of June 6th; winning flags matters in GJS'44)... So far, so good... Germans are only allowed 1 BG on landing beaches but can launch multifront attacks from neighbouring sectors... So Germans bring up II/744/711 to attack Gold from Creully and II/726/716 to attack Gold from Hillman... II/744/711 has an ME v 8/3 (considered the first Allied defender), then II/726/716 has an ME v 9/3... Where things get complicated is that the order of moves impacts who fights who...

If that still doesn't make sense, then give me a more precise hypothetical scenario of what you're thinking of... then prioritise both sides moves as a Commander would... and I'll plot it out for you... Can do by email instead of forum if you're worried about revealing something you prefer to hide?

My assumption is that the Commander who can position his forces for more multifront actions is going to win the Campaign, by dissolving more enemy BGs... Flanking matters... Although even the best strategies will require good captains to carry them out on the field...

Conversely, that also implies that the Allies absolutely must breakout from the beaches asap, in order to avoid being trapped in multifront actions by rapidly reinforcing Germans... If the Germans can hold you there for 3-4 days, you'll be crucified by incoming armour (although to credit Allied cunning, you have created a significant delaying diversion at the back! )

For anyone who wants to get some urban fighting in, before we hit Caen and Bayeux, here's the 'gen on how to download Ortona MP for any platform...

Ok guys,

1. Run BA on your Mac, PC or iPad
2. Choose Campaigns (at the bottom)
3. Choose Download Community Scenarios (at the top)
4. Choose Download a Campaign Package from the Internet (top right)
5. Type http://bit.ly/BA88ortona into the URL box
6. Click the green tick
7. Back at the campaigns list, select "Ortona MP" and click Download the Selected Campaign (bottom centre)
8. This should download everything that you need
9. Go back to the first page of BA and choose Multiplayer
10. Log in to Multiplayer as normal
11. Either go to the My Challenges tab and create a New Challenge. This list will now show the Ortona MP...
12. Or go to the Accepts Challenges tab and look for an opponent...

After all that, you can play Ortona MP on any platform... Phew!!

I would be interested in playing


1. Michael I Lazar, handle mlazar mlazar@vmware.com
2. PC
3. your preference for Allied or German (if any) -either side
4. your preference for tanks or infantry (if any) any (love artillery!)
5. prefer just the tactical game
6. if you can be a Games Master (GM, we'll need 2-3 of us who have the skills to setup maps and games; it's easy if you have basic IT skills and we'll show you the rest - no time

mlazar wrote:I would be interested in playing


1. Michael I Lazar, handle mlazar mlazar@vmware.com
2. PC
3. your preference for Allied or German (if any) -either side
4. your preference for tanks or infantry (if any) any (love artillery!)
5. prefer just the tactical game
6. if you can be a Games Master (GM, we'll need 2-3 of us who have the skills to setup maps and games; it's easy if you have basic IT skills and we'll show you the rest - no time

Welcome Michael. Great to have you onboard.

Leci, Can you take mlazar onto the German side? You seem to have no shortage of free BGs ready to play on June 7th...

Preparing for June 7th...

I observe from KingT's shrewd cross-examination that some of you are already mentally plotting out what happens next...

Please would Commanders privately email me the THREE sector maps that they would like to reconnoitre before making their command decisions for June 7th.

No freebies, I'm afraid. Meaning, it don't matter if you've got paras in part of Vimont, or if you've had a German artillery brigade in Hillman for the past three years. If you want that map, it counts as one of your three...

As a matter of practicality, this helps me to prioritise which maps to design next... and next week is going to be a busy one at work...