Slitherine

Cost of Combat Capabilities

Are there going to be changes to Points Values in V2 ?

I only ask as my Lydian Heavy Cavalry & Light Chariots pay 1pt for a Light Spear which they never get to use, where as Foot with their 'free' Light Spear get an Impact POA as a given.

Mounted pay 1pt for Javelins and 1pt for Light Spear where as Foot get them for Free, is this fair ?

Warlord wrote:Cost of Combat Capabilities

Are there going to be changes to Points Values in V2 ?

I only ask as my Lydian Heavy Cavalry & Light Chariots pay 1pt for a Light Spear which they never get to use, where as Foot with their 'free' Light Spear get an Impact POA as a given.

Mounted pay 1pt for Javelins and 1pt for Light Spear where as Foot get them for Free, is this fair ?

No and yes respectively.

Warlord wrote:Cost of Combat Capabilities

Are there going to be changes to Points Values in V2 ?

I only ask as my Lydian Heavy Cavalry & Light Chariots pay 1pt for a Light Spear which they never get to use, where as Foot with their 'free' Light Spear get an Impact POA as a given.

Mounted pay 1pt for Javelins and 1pt for Light Spear where as Foot get them for Free, is this fair ?

Oh yes, that massively favoured troop type - foot with light spear.

Note sure why they aren't using it. should be very handy against that Persian invading force I'd have thought.

Pretty much all mounted weapons are more expensive than foot equivalents. Light spear armed cavalry are correctly priced IMHO.

Bear in mind your mounted get a free POA against a lot of foot just for being mounted and then the foot get a minus on the cohesion test when they lose.

Oh yes, that massively favoured troop type - foot with light spear.

I wouldn't say the problem is that these are overpowered OR overcosted... BUT, the fact does remain that there are troops in the lists that cost exactly the same as these guys and -don't- get the same free benefits (and, bluntly, are utter crap in these rules as anything other than maybe a rear-support... assuming said army has anything to support). Whether this flaw is big enough to be worth the disruption of correcting is another debate.

SNIP

Pretty much all mounted weapons are more expensive than foot equivalents. Light spear armed cavalry are correctly priced IMHO.

Hmmm... hard to say... it's a rare enough bonus, but cavalry tend to be more expensive to begin with, so the proportional cost increase probably is more in line with the utility.

Bear in mind your mounted get a free POA against a lot of foot just for being mounted and then the foot get a minus on the cohesion test when they lose.

True, but that really has no bearing whatsoever on whether the light spear is worth the points.

Jhykronos wrote:

Bear in mind your mounted get a free POA against a lot of foot just for being mounted and then the foot get a minus on the cohesion test when they lose.

True, but that really has no bearing whatsoever on whether the light spear is worth the points.

On the contrary. Consider light spear armed cavalry at impact against medium foot with light spear in the open. Mounted vs MF is a +, the foot get a + for light spear. Because the POAs are equal and the cavalry have a light spear, they will be on a +POA at impact. So should win the combat and the foot get a CHT at an extra -1. Hence the light spear is worth the points in combination with the mounted getting a + vs MF.

In some circumstances, light spear can be the best impact weapon for mounted. For example, light spear cavalry charging Offensive spear Medium foot in the open end up on a net plus. Lance armed mounted end up on an equal POA.

Another good example is Light Foot Vs Longbows.

A BG of 8 Light Foot LtSp/Jav approach into Javelin range against 6 Longbow. The Javelins get 4 dice @ 0 points, the longbow 4 dice @ 12 points.Both require a 4 to hit.
Over the course of a game the Light Foot player could get upwards of 50 FREE dice rolls with 2-3 BGs of Light Foot against the English.
There are other armies that would score many more FREE dice rolls with their javelins.

Warlord wrote:Another good example is Light Foot Vs Longbows.

A BG of 8 Light Foot LtSp/Jav approach into Javelin range against 6 Longbow. The Javelins get 4 dice @ 0 points, the longbow 4 dice @ 12 points.Both require a 4 to hit.
Over the course of a game the Light Foot player could get upwards of 50 FREE dice rolls with 2-3 BGs of Light Foot against the English.
There are other armies that would score many more FREE dice rolls with their javelins.

Indeed. However, I am usually delighted if javelin light foot mix it with my MF bows. They don't have the firepower to worry me. I blow them to pieces picking up attrition points. If only I could tempt them to stand when I charge them with battle troops so they can make use of their free light spear! Just because a capability is free, it doesn't mean it's a good idea to use it!

Your longbowmen might be happy to exchange shooting with LF, Graham, but my unprotected Egyptian archers are much less sanguine.

They have four dice needing 4+, but the LF have four dice needing 3+. Since there are only 6 of me, and 8 of them, I almost never get enough hits to force a test, and they force one every turn...

Do we know yet what the final changes to v2 were that will balance the reduction in effectiveness of unarmoured MF archers that the other proposed changes were going to cause?

Warlord wrote:Another good example is Light Foot Vs Longbows.

A BG of 8 Light Foot LtSp/Jav approach into Javelin range against 6 Longbow. The Javelins get 4 dice @ 0 points, the longbow 4 dice @ 12 points.Both require a 4 to hit.
Over the course of a game the Light Foot player could get upwards of 50 FREE dice rolls with 2-3 BGs of Light Foot against the English.
There are other armies that would score many more FREE dice rolls with their javelins.

In this simplistic example the longbow should shake out into a line 4 wide (or heck 6 wide) with 2 rear ranks and enjoy shooting 5 dice vs. 4 dice. The longbows should probably also lose to less than 1 MU and charge more or less every opportunity...Let's not forget the free shooting the longbows enjoyed as the LF moved up into range.

Sorry guys, if the army lists allow some troops to have free capabilities and some cannot, we won't be buying the next lot of rules. An example would be Imperial Romans.They should have darts/Javelins and impact foot and swordsman and should have to pay for each weapon capability. No freebies or omittions. Either this stands as the way we are going to cost our armies or we go with old way of only using the PRIMARY method of fighting which is paid for. So example here would be to have it as shooter/impact or as like skirmishers with limited close combat capability. If armies have expensive troops they have small armies. And commanders should be like FoG:N with pip's to stop endless complex moves so that regular armies have more maneuverability and easier to control unlike irregular armies.

Go bob, you have balls that tick. There are Medium Foot that get to throw javelins so why not Heavy Foot ? as long as both pay for the privilege.

Yay, let's all fast-forward to 1978

We've had rhe free light spear argument mayn times, I agree there are some case where troop types are disadvantaged because they don't get the free capability - but it's only a FEW troop types.

Comparing LF with javs vs. longbowmen kind of misses the point - the point being that what really matters is how much each of those bases costs overall, not how much of that cost comes from the basis troop type cost and how much comes from the weapon capability. If you made the points cost of the LF +1 for javs they areprobably now too expensive for their usefulness.

So to bring them back into line add a new adjustment of -1 for LF. Great, you've now restored the balance to where it was before. But wait, your LF with bows and slings are now cheaper than before. Simples, increase the cost of bow capability for foot by 1, and now everything is back to where it was.

But wait! MF bowmen are now a point more expensive, which considering their dubious usefulness under the rules as they stand* is a far worse problem than LF which are claimed by two people in the whole world to be overpowered becuase of their free javelins.

* caveat: may change under V2

I agree that MF with free javelins is perhaps more of a concern, as you'll end up giving a boost to many troops that are already very usable. Perhaps keep free javs for LF but add a slight cost for MF. 1 point is probably too much though as things stand.

Now if somebody could actually explain to me (I did ask once!) why it is that skirmishing Cav cannot throw javelins I would be ecstatic...

The real problem is not MF, Lt spear, Sw who are probably about the right cost. It is the fact that MF, Sw cost the same...

IMO what is missing is a combat capability, basically "Impact foot light" which you would grade most/all the troops that are MF, Sw as MF, Sw, "Impact foot light" this might make the liable to charge, give them a PoA similar to that give to actual impact foot (but not a double PoA against foot) and also haev no cost.

ShrubMiK wrote:
Now if somebody could actually explain to me (I did ask once!) why it is that skirmishing Cav cannot throw javelins I would be ecstatic...

Now you are talking, please include Light Chariots in that.

ethan wrote:The real problem is not MF, Lt spear, Sw who are probably about the right cost. It is the fact that MF, Sw cost the same...

IMO what is missing is a combat capability, basically "Impact foot light" which you would grade most/all the troops that are MF, Sw as MF, Sw, "Impact foot light" this might make the liable to charge, give them a PoA similar to that give to actual impact foot (but not a double PoA against foot) and also haev no cost.

With only one die per two bases? whats the point?

Warlord wrote:Another good example is Light Foot Vs Longbows.

A BG of 8 Light Foot LtSp/Jav approach into Javelin range against 6 Longbow. The Javelins get 4 dice @ 0 points, the longbow 4 dice @ 12 points.Both require a 4 to hit.
Over the course of a game the Light Foot player could get upwards of 50 FREE dice rolls with 2-3 BGs of Light Foot against the English.
There are other armies that would score many more FREE dice rolls with their javelins.

ehh???

ok javelins shoot at 2 MU...

longbow at 6 MU

so ..the javelins will get at least 2 volleys of arrows on their heads first

Jilu wrote:ehh???

ok javelins shoot at 2 MU...

longbow at 6 MU

so ..the javelins will get at least 2 volleys of arrows on their heads first

Ehh???

Long Bow move to within shooting range of the LF and get a shot.
Next turn Javelin armed LF move to within 2" and then it's on for returning fire.

So 'at least' 1 volley of arrows on their heads (at long range) before return fire.

Someone know the extemated date for pubblish the new version ? people organizing tournemants ask it

It was imminent until we stated to look at the print version. I guess September/October is more likely now but until we resolve how we're going to deliver a physical version its pretty much impossible to set a date.

Can't you put out the digital version before the print version? Most people's, or was it just my, problem was not getting a print version at all.