Slitherine

SnuggleBunnies wrote: ↑Thu Jun 25, 2020 4:40 pm Naphtha bombs are also excellent vs elephants

vakarr wrote: ↑Sun Jun 28, 2020 7:55 am Cavalry are vulnerable to shooting, so it might be possible to tempt the enemy cavalry into a killing zone, then shoot them up with much cheaper troops. Did that recently in a game where my best cavalry was average protected cavalry, and his best cavalry was superior armoured cavalry - moved my light horse around the flank, where I got a local superiority, shot up the heavy cavalry, then shot them up some more with the aid of foot bows - was surprised to see how easy it was against superior heavy cavalry. By the time I charged them with my rubbish cavalry, the enemy cavalry were all fragmented or disrupted. Never played on emperor level, though. Maybe the AI doesn't wait until you move up within 5 squares before it reacts at that level. (video available of this soon)

kronenblatt wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am I struggle offensively with Elephants: when, where and how to select and deploy Elephant units, and targeting which type of enemy unit? Other considerations?

Swuul wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:16 am

kronenblatt wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am I struggle offensively with Elephants: when, where and how to select and deploy Elephant units, and targeting which type of enemy unit? Other considerations?

I don't claim to be an expert with elephants, but I like to deploy one when I have the chance. However, before doing that, there are always things that I need to first consider:
1) Does your opponent have lots of shooters, or access to lots of javelins? Javelins are scary for elephants, while other missiles don't seem to be that scary, the if the volume of shrapnel in the air is great, eventually they will cause the phants morale break.
1a) Even if hostiles have lots of javelins and archers/slingers, do you have stuff in your army who can shield your phants from the volleys?

2) Phants excel vs cavalry, and they can disrupt opposing pikes and run over impact infantry. But if opponent is using lots of cheap infantry, look up so that your phants don't get lured away -> it may feel great that your phant just broke a 15 point horde infantry in impact, but the phants then keep on chasing the horde, there goes your expensive phant chasing nobodies, and you can start banging your head against the table. And if they didn't break that horde on impact, you can be guaranteed their friends will then flank change your phants next round... Ie use phants vs cavalry armies and expensive infantry armies, but it might be time for some more thinking if you are going to be faced by armies with lots of cheap infantry.

3) Phants don't like bad terrain, at all. If there is even a small risk of the phants getting stuck on some bad terrain, I prefer to leave them home.



During actual combat, I like to place a general (usually a SC, not the C-in-C) on the phant. Long command range from the elephant is of course one thing, another is that you want the general bonus when you get to melee, and you also want the general bonus when you absolutely desperately need the phant to rally (either from being broken, or up from fragmented/disrupted).

Leave the elephant in the second row. That way you are safe from hostile archers, and you can then charge through the gaps in the front line when time comes. The thing is to not release the phants too early, as they might run off somewhere chasing nobodies, or running into a terrible position after the charge; this is something I always seem to poop up (I keep slapping myself on the fingers if I even think of pressing that Charge button, and then my mind slips for a split second and I lose focus, and I immediatly did it again: CHAAAARGE (snif)). Often the mere existence of the elephant hampers your opponent more than the actual things the phant does, but once the phant is locked in in combat (or is chasing broken rabbits in their rear somewhere), they can carry out their plans easier.

In short, think of the elephant as a glass cannon. It can hit so incredibly hard in impact, but it can also shatter so easily when somebody farts the wrong way.

vakarr wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:46 am Note that javelins are no more effective against elephants than other shooting weapons

kronenblatt wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am I struggle offensively with Elephants: targeting which type of enemy unit?

Swuul wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:16 am Phants excel vs cavalry, and they can disrupt opposing pikes and run over impact infantry.

kronenblatt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:37 am

kronenblatt wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am I struggle offensively with Elephants: targeting which type of enemy unit?

Swuul wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:16 am Phants excel vs cavalry, and they can disrupt opposing pikes and run over impact infantry.

So basically it's best to target cavalry, pikes, and impact foot?

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:31 pm

kronenblatt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:37 am

kronenblatt wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am I struggle offensively with Elephants: targeting which type of enemy unit?

Swuul wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:16 am Phants excel vs cavalry, and they can disrupt opposing pikes and run over impact infantry.

So basically it's best to target cavalry, pikes, and impact foot?

Not pikes.

kronenblatt wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am I struggle offensively with Elephants: when, where and how to select and deploy Elephant units, and targeting which type of enemy unit? Other considerations?

kraff wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:21 am

kronenblatt wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am I struggle offensively with Elephants: when, where and how to select and deploy Elephant units, and targeting which type of enemy unit? Other considerations?

Use them only in combined arms approach. Javelinmen and phalanxes are the ultimate anti-elephant units, so screen your elephants from the former and don't charge the latter. Massed archers are also deadly for elephants. Don't underestimate other ranged units, because when they act in concert, they can easily break your gajas.

Charging other elephants solo is extremely risky, and outcome of such a duel is completely unpredictable. Frontally charging solo anything but medium foot or shock cavalry (these are doomed when hit by elephants) can be problematic. Light cavalry or horse archers or non-shock cavalry will avoid contact and you will end up chasing wind with your flanks exposed to infantry attacks and javelin shower, so don't do that. Charging heavy infantry yields different results. Roman legionaries more often than not are very resilient to elephant attacks for some reason, so don't expect they will fall in heaps (like they did according to Polybius). Heavies are best dealt with by proper flanking anyway, so use your elephants to hit them from the flank.

Heavy units with >480 men will eventually win a duel with elephants due to huge difference in numbers, unless you manage to disrupt them. Keep in mind that there are only 20 elephants in a unit. So when you only lose initial 2 you get negative modifier for suffering significant casualties (>5%). And they are down to 18, so from now on losing 1 elephant is -1 modifier to cohesion test.

Now - this is important - routed elephant unit will cause cohesion test in friendly units in range of 2 squares. So if there is a fragmented unit in range - it will most likely break causing additional cohesion tests in friendly units. With a bit of luck this in turn may cause multiple morale drops in enemy units. Cool. Or not cool if those are your elephants that are about to break and you have some disrupted or fragmented units nearby.

Gajas have also ability to disrupt nearby cavalry units, so you can use that to your advantage if you can’t engage such cav unit directly (because, say, your elephants guard your flank at the moment).

Use your elephants in close formation with your other troops, preferably in flanking maneuvers, and attempt to set up conditions for a devastating “chained charge”. Don’t use them against pikes or superior heavy infantry. Use them against enemy cavalry (even superior) and medium foot. At all times screen them from enemy ranged units and guard the flanks of your gajas, because they are extremely vulnerable to morale drops and when routing they can send multiple of your units to the hills as well.

Swuul wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:36 pm

rbodleyscott wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:31 pm

kronenblatt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:37 am



So basically it's best to target cavalry, pikes, and impact foot?

Not pikes.

Do not charge pikes with phants if the pikes have 4 ranks of models. If they have 3 or less, then yes, even pikes can be run over. In short, keep the phants initially back when fighting vs pikes, and after the pikes have taken losses (from shooting or from melee), roll in the phant (unless the pikes are of Superior or Elite quality). Notice that it is just fine to *recieve* the charge of the pikes (but if your phant is placed so that they can recieve the charge from pikes, then there is always the risk some evil javelinmen will burst forwards to make your days miserable).

Elephants get +250 on impact, pikes with 4 ranks get +200 if they are charged, so the difference is too small to risk it with the phants (if they lose it and become Disrupted, the phants are dead meat vs pikes in future rounds). If the pikes are charging, or if the pikes have less than 4 ranks, the pikes will get at most +100 POA, and then the POA difference (if you have the general (who provide +50)on the phant) will be 250+50-100= +200 which is the maximum you can get anyway (and you will have a 0% chance of losing the impact round)).

kronenblatt wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 10:50 am

kraff wrote: ↑Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:21 am

kronenblatt wrote: ↑Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:06 am I struggle offensively with Elephants: when, where and how to select and deploy Elephant units, and targeting which type of enemy unit? Other considerations?

Use them only in combined arms approach. Javelinmen and phalanxes are the ultimate anti-elephant units, so screen your elephants from the former and don't charge the latter. Massed archers are also deadly for elephants. Don't underestimate other ranged units, because when they act in concert, they can easily break your gajas.

Charging other elephants solo is extremely risky, and outcome of such a duel is completely unpredictable. Frontally charging solo anything but medium foot or shock cavalry (these are doomed when hit by elephants) can be problematic. Light cavalry or horse archers or non-shock cavalry will avoid contact and you will end up chasing wind with your flanks exposed to infantry attacks and javelin shower, so don't do that. Charging heavy infantry yields different results. Roman legionaries more often than not are very resilient to elephant attacks for some reason, so don't expect they will fall in heaps (like they did according to Polybius). Heavies are best dealt with by proper flanking anyway, so use your elephants to hit them from the flank.

Heavy units with >480 men will eventually win a duel with elephants due to huge difference in numbers, unless you manage to disrupt them. Keep in mind that there are only 20 elephants in a unit. So when you only lose initial 2 you get negative modifier for suffering significant casualties (>5%). And they are down to 18, so from now on losing 1 elephant is -1 modifier to cohesion test.

Now - this is important - routed elephant unit will cause cohesion test in friendly units in range of 2 squares. So if there is a fragmented unit in range - it will most likely break causing additional cohesion tests in friendly units. With a bit of luck this in turn may cause multiple morale drops in enemy units. Cool. Or not cool if those are your elephants that are about to break and you have some disrupted or fragmented units nearby.

Gajas have also ability to disrupt nearby cavalry units, so you can use that to your advantage if you can’t engage such cav unit directly (because, say, your elephants guard your flank at the moment).

Use your elephants in close formation with your other troops, preferably in flanking maneuvers, and attempt to set up conditions for a devastating “chained charge”. Don’t use them against pikes or superior heavy infantry. Use them against enemy cavalry (even superior) and medium foot. At all times screen them from enemy ranged units and guard the flanks of your gajas, because they are extremely vulnerable to morale drops and when routing they can send multiple of your units to the hills as well.

Thanks, Swuul and kraff! Wish I had followed your advice the other day... But now I have a new shot at it.