Slitherine

I loved the voice acting in PG1. I now remember that I thought the voice-overs in PG2 sounded more like Dracula speaking than a German General. Hell, the general in PC2 breifings sounds fine, but looks more like my late Cuban father-in-law than a German too!

I think they should have used the Hogans Hero's Germans. That would be fantastic.

Klink
Shultz
Burkhalter
Hachsetter

etc

adiekmann wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:29 pm I loved the voice acting in PG1. I now remember that I thought the voice-overs in PG2 sounded more like Dracula speaking than a German General. Hell, the general in PC2 breifings sounds fine, but looks more like my late Cuban father-in-law than a German too!

lol

sIg3b wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:34 pm The briefing is not supposed to be objective. It´s from the viewpoint of the 3rd Reich, obviously. They have never been accused of trying to be objective. If anything, the self-righteousness is probably understated. Otherwise plausible enough.

Is it though? When I read this briefing, I see the writing of someone looking back on history, who knows not only what happened, but what is going to happen. We know what's coming with World War II in its entirety, because it's our history. But while the Condor Legion was fighting in Spain, they had no concept of what was going to happen, it was still 'the future' for them.

This is maybe why the people at the highest levels of command sent the Condor Legion over there, to test new weapons and tactics, but it's not like the 3rd Reich knew World War II was coming, and this doesn't reflect on the personnel actually involved in Spain properly at all.

Germany, at this point, was trying to undo the various things done to them thanks to the Treaty of Versailles. They weren't looking for war with France and Britain and the Allies. Hence the creeping annexation of one thing after another (Rhineland, Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia) and not doing a straight up declaration of war on France (France declared on Germany, because of Poland). Hence trying to still have peace with Britain even after the fighting in France was ongoing (Churchill wasn't having any of that though, heh).
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/ ... 180959040/

Full German mobilization for war didn't happen until... 1942? It came when they realized this wasn't going to be a short war (like Poland and France had been) and that didn't occur to them until after the failure to take Moscow.
https://germanculture.com.ua/germany-hi ... n-germany/


Maybe I've just done too much historical research into pre-war/early war recently, so this particular Spanish briefing rubbed me as especially glaring.

I mean, it's quite interesting, and it leads to a very real gameplay disconnect that happens:

"Why are my tanks such rubbish, they can't even fight weak Polish horses in X conditions."

This piece of feedback comes up so often, but it shows the disconnect between history and perception of German armor (Looking at you Tiger tank)

In Spain, they had MG only Panzer Is to give to the Nationalists. Meanwhile, the Soviets were sending over the T26, with much better armor and a proper 45mm cannon for main armament.
German tanks designs were behind the times in Spain.
In France, they had the short barrel, relatively light armor Panzer IV, and some early Panzer IIIs, with majority of their tanks still being Panzer Is and IIs. They were outgunned and out tonned by the Char B and Somua S35.
German tank design still behind the curve in France.
In Russia, they mostly still only had short barrel Panzer IVs to start. Outgunned and out tonned by the T34 and KV series of tanks.
German tank design STILL behind the curve in Barbarossa!

So who was really preparing for the next world war?

Yes, new German tactics were so far ahead of their enemies, which contributed more to victory than the weapons themselves. Proper use of tanks, as opposed to superior tanks with outdated tactics.
And then, when you merged those new German tactics with some really terrifying tanks in the Panther or Tiger, well that's where legendary reputations of German tanks really comes from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMDWWFKQgLQ

But while players are in Poland, struggling with their little Panzer Is and IIs, these historical intricacies definitely get lost on most players.

Dorky8 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:01 pm I don't think they want to be to accurate on the viewpoints of the Third Reich. It was evil and insane. No one should ever loose sight of that, even in a game.

This, 1000% this.

I don't need any sort of end victory screen with you know who congratulating me on a job well done.

Horseman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:40 pm

Dorky8 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:01 pm I don't think they want to be to accurate on the viewpoints of the Third Reich. It was evil and insane. No one should ever loose sight of that, even in a game.

This, 1000% this.

I don't need any sort of end victory screen with you know who congratulating me on a job well done.

But you are playing a game, not really in a war.

nexusno2000 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:51 pm

Horseman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:40 pm

Dorky8 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:01 pm I don't think they want to be to accurate on the viewpoints of the Third Reich. It was evil and insane. No one should ever loose sight of that, even in a game.

This, 1000% this.

I don't need any sort of end victory screen with you know who congratulating me on a job well done.

But you are playing a game, not really in a war.

True enough - but it's important to remember that its a game based on real events.

I would like some sort of stats screen though- loses (steps and units) for both sides...something like that.

You guys can say Hitler. It's not a naughty word.
Now that said, the solution to this is exactly what Panzer Corps 2 practices. There is a huge difference between Nazi Germany and the German Wehrmacht. This is why, even in this particular day and age, the game can lean heavily into 'Wehrmacht' and be sold quite freely in countries such as Germany.

nexusno2000 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:51 pm

Horseman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:40 pm

Dorky8 wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:01 pm I don't think they want to be to accurate on the viewpoints of the Third Reich. It was evil and insane. No one should ever loose sight of that, even in a game.

This, 1000% this.

I don't need any sort of end victory screen with you know who congratulating me on a job well done.

But you are playing a game, not really in a war.

The Nazi's murdered 6-10MM innocent Men, Women & Children and no venue (game or otherwise) in any way should ever trivialize that.

In the end some of the biggest casualties of the Nazi's evil were the German people, where after the war generations had to live decades in the shame of the Nazi atrocities.

Kerensky wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:14 pm You guys can say Hitler. It's not a naughty word.
Now that said, the solution to this is exactly what Panzer Corps 2 practices. There is a huge difference between Nazi Germany and the German Wehrmacht. This is why, even in this particular day and age, the game can lean heavily into 'Wehrmacht' and be sold quite freely in countries such as Germany.

You said the H word! Wash your mouth out with soap young man!

Is Godwin's Law applicable to a forum dedicated to a game based on WW2?

SineMora wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:36 pm Is Godwin's Law applicable to a forum dedicated to a game based on WW2?

I've never heard of that Law, had to look it up.
I laughed quite loudly, thanks.

We'll see if the discussion survives mentioning Hitler. If it ends on that note, I guess it does apply.
(Incoming forum moderator thread lock for mentioning Hitler)

But considering mention of 'Hitler' in this situation was completely motivated by historical, and not someone accusing someone else of BEING Hitler... I think we're golden.

Kerensky wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:42 pm

SineMora wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:36 pm Is Godwin's Law applicable to a forum dedicated to a game based on WW2?

I've never heard of that Law, had to look it up.
I laughed quite loudly, thanks.

We'll see if the discussion survives mentioning Hitler. If it ends on that note, I guess it does apply.
(Incoming forum moderator thread lock for mentioning Hitler)

Well no one has been called a Nazi or Hitler (yet) :lol

Horseman wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:50 pm Well no one has been called a Nazi or Hitler (yet) :lol

You literally beat me to this by 1 second. I just edited that exact same comment into my post.

by Horseman » 13 Apr 2020 20:50
Last edited by Kerensky on 13 Apr 2020 20:51, edited 1 time in total.

KesaAnna wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:13 am I sorta , kinda , am surprised that the original grand campaign is a German campaign.

--- Except I'm not surprised.

Generally , the Germans had the coolest - looking uniforms and gear , plus the most variety .

--- Except we cannot come right out and say that.

The actual Third Reich / Wehrmacht flag is a lot prettier and generally cooler than the vague , generic , totally unhistorical , goofy , non - flag work - around everyone is using.

How were the german uniforms the coolest? I don't think that is the case. And it definitely is not the reason why the grand campaign is german. The grand campaign (and first campaign) is german, because they were the main actors of wwii. They were on the offensive for the first few years and fought all the time.
Imagine a Grand Campaign as any other country (or look at the other grand campaign as US):
USA: You won't even join the fight before 1942
UK: No fights in 39 really, in 1940 only battles you will lose, except if you decide to make scenarios in africa -> no battles in 41 and 42 except in africa
Soviets: No fights before 1941 (except maybe winter war) -> then basically only losing battles until 1942
France: Almost only losing in 1940 -> then basically no big battles at all (or just playing support roles)

If UK had been the main actor in wwii, the grand campaign would have been about them, this has absolutely nothing to do with their uniforms. A Grand Campaign profits from spanning multiple years, especially since you get to "know" your units and follow their upgrades and experience gain.

Kerensky wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:27 pm [...]
So who was really preparing for the next world war?

Yes, new German tactics were so far ahead of their enemies, which contributed more to victory than the weapons themselves. Proper use of tanks, as opposed to superior tanks with outdated tactics.
And then, when you merged those new German tactics with some really terrifying tanks in the Panther or Tiger, well that's where legendary reputations of German tanks really comes from.
[...]

While I agree with most of your post, I really have to talk about this.
I don't know if this was supposed to be sarcasm (indicated by the smiley behind it), but germany was preparing for world war two from the get go after hitler came to power. That they made quite a few mistakes in planning (for example not getting enough winter clothes or stopping the ural bomber project which could have been quite useful) is true, but in no way shows that they weren't planning for world war two. This avenue of thought has been taken by a few "historians" (for example Gerd Schulze-Rohnhof) and has been shown as very wrong.

Concerning the tank tactics:
the german tactics were ahead of their enemies, but how far is debatable. The radios definitely helped them, but the biggest advantage for them was that they were grouped in independent divisions and not split up between infantry divisions like the french did. The british had quite similar ideas with their cruiser tanks, but did not have the quantity or quality during the battle of france.
Ironically when the germans got the tigers and panthers into service, those tactics weren't really applicable anymore instead relying on their armor, which is shown in the video you posted. This has nothing to do with the german tank tactics.

Kerensky wrote: ↑Mon Apr 13, 2020 8:14 pm Now that said, the solution to this is exactly what Panzer Corps 2 practices. There is a huge difference between Nazi Germany and the German Wehrmacht. This is why, even in this particular day and age, the game can lean heavily into 'Wehrmacht' and be sold quite freely in countries such as Germany.

There is a difference between nazi germany and the german wehrmacht. And I think it is a good decision to keep the atrocities out of the game. BUT: The difference between nazis and wehrmacht is much smaller than many might still think. German historiography has established in the last twenty years how far they were intertwined. Yes, not all german soldiers agreed with the nazis, but a massive percentage of them were at least okay with it. This has been shown over and over again. And the wehrmacht either participated in the atrocities or perpetrated them themselves. Just a few examples: Babi Yar, Dulag 183, Vinkt Massacre, Byelaya Tserkov, Expulsion of Jews from Ioannina. And it is not like the wehrmacht soldiers often shot soviet commissars without prompting by sd, ss or einsatzgruppen.
More than 90% (for me personally it would probably be 100%) of german soldiers knew of the holocaust and many, many of them participated in them one way or another. This does not necessarily mean they killed people, but helped in the logistics, cleaned up, horded the people or made sure nobody saw the atrocities who shouldn't. On a side note: The same can be assumed for the german civilians. Almost all of them knew, although quite a few of them pretended not to know.
You don't have to keep this in mind while playing this game. I don't really do either, because then I would not play this game. But to assume that the wehrmacht was not responsible for war crimes is a myth and it is called "myth of the clean wehrmacht"
Some books if someone is interested (often available in english translations): Römer, Felix: Kameraden; Neitzel/Welzer: Soldaten. On fighting, killing and dying: The secret wwii transcripts of german pows; Wette, Wolfram: Wehrmacht. History, Myth and Reality.

pewp3w wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:51 amor just playing support roles)

If UK had been the main actor in wwii, the grand campaign would have been about them, this has absolutely nothing to do with their uniforms. A Grand Campaign profits from spanning multiple years, especially since you get to "know" your units and follow their upgrades and experience gain.

There was a UK Grand Campaign planned, but it never got off the ground because people we moved to other projects (this one). There's enough UK related warfare to fill a Grand Campaign. Just start in Africa against Italy and go from there. Would definitely have ended with (fictional) Operation Unthinkable too.

Germany, UK, and USSR are definitely the three nations I say are fully capable of a serious multi-year Grand Campaign.

pewp3w wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:51 amImagine a Grand Campaign as any other country (or look at the other grand campaign as US):
France: Almost only losing in 1940 -> then basically no big battles at all (or just playing support roles)

There was a nice campaign in PG3DAssault, featuring Leclerc and his 2eDB (french 2nd armor division),
but it was not the greatest campaign, for sure.
But at least to learn the game, it could have started in Africa in 41, instead of 44.

Kerensky wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:22 am

pewp3w wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:51 amor just playing support roles)

If UK had been the main actor in wwii, the grand campaign would have been about them, this has absolutely nothing to do with their uniforms. A Grand Campaign profits from spanning multiple years, especially since you get to "know" your units and follow their upgrades and experience gain.

There was a UK Grand Campaign planned, but it never got off the ground because people we moved to other projects (this one). There's enough UK related warfare to fill a Grand Campaign. Just start in Africa against Italy and go from there. Would definitely have ended with (fictional) Operation Unthinkable too.

Germany, UK, and USSR are definitely the three nations I say are fully capable of a serious multi-year Grand Campaign.

You could even start a British grand campaign with the BEF. Some defensive scenarios finishing with the Dunkirk evacuation. Then on to Africa.

ErissN6 wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 7:28 am

pewp3w wrote: ↑Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:51 amImagine a Grand Campaign as any other country (or look at the other grand campaign as US):
France: Almost only losing in 1940 -> then basically no big battles at all (or just playing support roles)

There was a nice campaign in PG3DAssault, featuring Leclerc and his 2eDB (french 2nd armor division),
but it was not the greatest campaign, for sure.
But at least to learn the game, it could have started in Africa in 41, instead of 44.

Yeah, I thought about a french campaign as well, starting with the saar offensive, then norway, fighting in france before going off into the world to fight some battles like madagascar or st pierre and miquelon(not historical) and then obviously africa before going back to france.

There is enough material for a UK grand campaign for sure, but germany is still best suited, since they were always right in the thick of it all the time.