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Re: Adjusting the Commander Trait Points
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:17 pm
by Edmon
SineMora wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:43 pm
You'd be surprised by how quickly some players manage to blow through prestige once they stop gaining it, but sure, sacrificing prestige to reinforce engineers will speed up scenarios. With heroes you don't get to that point, though -- in the second part of my first (and only unless they are nerfed into the ground) campaign with heroes I was finishing scenarios in 10-12 turns on average (with 25-35 allotted), with hero units just clearing out everything. Even if you pushed in thousands of prestige per scenario to cover your losses it'd be difficult to get similar performance from mere mortal engineers who have to waste turns reinforcing. No amount of prestige can get you the performance of the über units of the Wehrmacht, and once you start adding challenge modes to the game, well, heroes make it somewhat easier to deal with all that OSed Soviet armour.
The recommendation hasn't really changed as far as I'm concerned for the average player -- I believe one of the devs said that Colonel is the most common difficulty setting, which means they're likely to get a lot more out of prestige bonuses; it's not the players on Generalissimus who are complaining that they're running out of prestige as a general rule -- so Liberator and Trophies of War remain great picks for them. It's just strange to rate them as particularly strong for experienced players.
The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the capture enablers (grasp/Perm control/flex especially) are just outright better at generating prestige and easier to use than trophies.
The thing is, trophies doesn't in any way help you get captures. It just makes captures more valuable. Flex and Grasp especially allow you to massively suppress (and do minimal damage to) the units you want to capture as well as making capture easier and safer (since grasp inflicts a massive 4 suppress on their turn, it makes fighting back for them really hard). I would argue that'd lead to bigger captures and those captures would be easier and safer to implement with the skills that support capture and that may actually result in better prestige gains overall than just trophies on it's own with nothing to actually support it.
I recently Ironmanned for 2 hours, with "Absolutely denied airforce and artillery" I.E. I had none of either and sold all the starting ones. I went all in on the capture enablers and I was shocked at how much easier they made some of the battles. Grasp is a monster ability if you can lock in enemy units and deny them supply.
Re: Adjusting the Commander Trait Points
Posted: Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:45 pm
by SineMora
There's a reason I rate Perimeter Control and Flexible Command as the best traits* -- I don't think there's any doubt that they're superior to Trophies for generating prestige if you know what you're doing; it's just that Trophies is more straightforward judging by the comments on other forums, because a lot of players have made Trophies work for them, but Perimeter Control and Flexible Command remain strangely unpopular. Deadly Grasp would be up there if it didn't require those two to utilize fully, whereas they benefit from but can work even w/o it. Perhaps someone has used recons to compensate, but I'm partial to the IB.
* Yes, yes, there's Killer Team. I prefer to pretend it doesn't exist because the state of heroes makes me sad.
Re: Adjusting the Commander Trait Points
Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:32 pm
by nexusno2000
SineMora wrote: ↑Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:45 pm
There's a reason I rate Perimeter Control and Flexible Command as the best traits* -- I don't think there's any doubt that they're superior to Trophies for generating prestige if you know what you're doing; it's just that Trophies is more straightforward judging by the comments on other forums, because a lot of players have made Trophies work for them, but Perimeter Control and Flexible Command remain strangely unpopular. Deadly Grasp would be up there if it didn't require those two to utilize fully, whereas they benefit from but can work even w/o it. Perhaps someone has used recons to compensate, but I'm partial to the IB.
* Yes, yes, there's Killer Team. I prefer to pretend it doesn't exist because the state of heroes makes me sad.
Perimiter Control has been my favorite since I joined the beta. Flexible Command I took a while to warm to, but now they go hand in hand.
Re: Adjusting the Commander Trait Points
Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:43 pm
by eddieballgame
Per the 'capturing traits', (Flexible Command etc).
Doesn't this take away from gaining experience points?
My understanding is, all/bulk of exp comes from the 'kills'.
Re: Adjusting the Commander Trait Points
Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:56 pm
by SineMora
eddieballgame wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 8:43 pm
Per the 'capturing traits', (Flexible Command etc).
Doesn't this take away from gaining experience points?
My understanding is, all/bulk of exp comes from the 'kills'.
Yes, but the units you need to gain experience (Pioniere, fighters, bombers, artillery etc) will gain experience just fine. As for your tanks and heavy duty units, you don't need 4 star units when you're crushing the enemy with suppression. On the other hand, if you want to push experience rather than increase your prestige you can just switch to a more "normal" style -- it's not as if you are prevented from doing that by picking Flexible Command etc.
Re: Adjusting the Commander Trait Points
Posted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:25 pm
by eddieballgame
Thank you, SineMora.
I guess the question is...how much 'prestige' does one need to win the campaigns & what is the value of gathering more 'prestige' vs the losses per 'exps'.
Re: Adjusting the Commander Trait Points
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:28 am
by SineMora
eddieballgame wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:25 pm
Thank you, SineMora.
I guess the question is...how much 'prestige' does one need to win the campaigns & what is the value of gathering more 'prestige' vs the losses per 'exps'.
How long is a string? That comes down to the player in the end. FWIW I don't particularly rate experience, mainly because the initial 2 levels are easy to pick up and the marginal gains from going above that are not enough to warrant signficant effort. With the exception of support units that pick up experience easily most of my units are expected to finish a campaign with around 2 to 3 stars of experience, which is more than enough to have no problems. A few of the heavy-duty ones will have more, but the amount of kills you need for higher levels put a soft limit on how many units you can realistically bring up anyway.
For clarification I suppose I should add that you don't have to score kills to gain experience, as suppression works too. It's just that the latter is largely limited to certain types of units.
I started toying with the idea of using Auxiliary Force as a prestige dump instead (once von Manstein is added as a modifier), allowing you to free up core slots for units that don't need experience while giving you the opportunity to plough thousands of prestige into dropping Fallschirmjäger behind enemy lines to set up encirclements or similar shenanigans.
Re: Adjusting the Commander Trait Points
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:07 am
by eddieballgame
Thank you again, SineMora.
btw, I enjoyed your AAR
Re: Adjusting the Commander Trait Points
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:53 am
by deducter
After playing the tutorial and I learned about encirclement, when I first saw the list of traits it immediately jumped out that flexible command perimeter control are the two most OP traits by far, especially if you combine it with deadly grasp. The AI does not know how to deal with or how to prevent encirclement. Even with just deadly grasp I'm winning a lot of missions off of encirclements playing through them for the first time.
I think a no trait challenge would be much tougher than a no hero challenge.
My preference would be a game mode with certain combination of traits inspired by historical generals. Then players can play through the campaign with the same traits and compare results.
Re: Adjusting the Commander Trait Points
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:16 am
by eddieballgame
deducter wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:53 am
I think a no trait challenge would be much tougher than a no hero challenge.
My preference would be a game mode with certain combination of traits inspired by historical generals. Then players can play through the campaign with the same traits and compare results.
I like your idea of a 'no trait challenge'.
gave me an idea for some 'Rules" adjustments.
NO TRAITs are allowed for your General
replace the 'Rules' file (backed up, of course) in:
Panzer Corps 2/Panzer Corps 2/Content/Data
I also included in the attachment a version that allows only 1 positive Trait, based on the '2 point system'.
Re: Adjusting the Commander Trait Points
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 1:42 pm
by SineMora
Comradep suggested a no positive traits run (along with Generalissimus/Rommel/Guderian/no heroes) as an alternative challenge to von Manstein in the AAR section, as the latter only provides a brute force buff for the AI. It seems a little dull to me, but having a no positive (or no traits at all) as a challenge modifier would increase options and not be particularly hard to add.
eddieballgame wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:07 am
Thank you again, SineMora.
btw, I enjoyed your AAR
Thanks. That reminds me I should probably stop being a lazy bum and actually finish it.
Re: Adjusting the Commander Trait Points
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:43 pm
by Matyna
eddieballgame wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:16 am
deducter wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:53 am
I think a no trait challenge would be much tougher than a no hero challenge.
My preference would be a game mode with certain combination of traits inspired by historical generals. Then players can play through the campaign with the same traits and compare results.
I like your idea of a 'no trait challenge'.
gave me an idea for some 'Rules" adjustments.
NO TRAITs are allowed for your General
replace the 'Rules' file (backed up, of course) in:
Panzer Corps 2/Panzer Corps 2/Content/Data
I also included in the attachment a version that allows only 1 positive Trait, based on the '2 point system'.
You dont even need to pick traits, you can just start playing without them. Soo some moding is unnecessary imo.
Re: Adjusting the Commander Trait Points
Posted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 6:09 pm
by eddieballgame
Matyna wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 3:43 pm
eddieballgame wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:16 am
deducter wrote: ↑Tue Apr 07, 2020 2:53 am
I think a no trait challenge would be much tougher than a no hero challenge.
My preference would be a game mode with certain combination of traits inspired by historical generals. Then players can play through the campaign with the same traits and compare results.
I like your idea of a 'no trait challenge'.
gave me an idea for some 'Rules" adjustments.
NO TRAITs are allowed for your General
replace the 'Rules' file (backed up, of course) in:
Panzer Corps 2/Panzer Corps 2/Content/Data
I also included in the attachment a version that allows only 1 positive Trait, based on the '2 point system'.
You dont even need to pick traits, you can just start playing without them. Soo some moding is unnecessary imo.
Yes, I missed that.
For some reason I thought if you did not choose any 'Traits', they would be selected for you.
Thank you