Slitherine

Yes.

rbodleyscott wrote:There are no HW in the Aztec list although there are in many of the other lists in the book.

Tease!!

stenic wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote:There are no HW in the Aztec list although there are in many of the other lists in the book.

Tease!!

OK Steve, just for you, the Tupi are mostly MF, Protected or Unprotected, Bow*, Heavy Weapon.

jcmedhurst wrote:

Moreover, MF with atlatls (Javelins shooting capability) may be rather scary for elephants

Can't help but feel that, given the Aztec reaction to horses, engaging elephants might be a bit of a challenge.

Aztec reaction to horses wasn't that bad after the initial shock*- although is out of period - try and chop their heads off. The main problem they had was that their weapons and tactics - not suprisingly - were poor against well armed horsemen.

By the time they started to experiment with makeshift pikes smallpox had taken hold.

Since the standard ancient tactic vs elephants were to shower them with missiles and not fight them with horses they could have been ok.

Graham

* "crikey! (well known Nahuatl word) a six legged demon that can split in two, etc" - though I think this was actually the coastal tribes.

rbodleyscott wrote:
OK Steve, just for you, the Tupi are mostly MF, Protected or Unprotected, Bow*, Heavy Weapon.

Damn! You saw through that subtle attempt then? I'll not bother attempting to protest my innocence

But I thank you for the gesture. A most excellent and fitting category... almost as if the rules were cleverly written to cater for such oddities in warfare

Steve P

stenic wrote: But I thank you for the gesture. A most excellent and fitting category... almost as if the rules were cleverly written to cater for such oddities in warfare

Just wait till you see the far Eastern lists

The reason they were super in 7th edition was the irreversible fatigue system and the fact that they could evade. They could thus reduce enemy foot to Fatigued status at virtually no risk to themselves. In FOG they cannot evade, so, unless the enemy fannies around, they are unlikely ever to get more than 1 shot in against melee troops before they are contacted.

We have, of course, play-tested them.

Well, maybe, the real reason they were so super in 7th Edition was that they had vast quantities of 2" and 3" range shooting, cavalry and knights didn't dare go near them due to the missiles, and all the infantry they were scared of they could run away from. It wasn't usually fatigue that did for people, it was the massed shooting sending them disordered and forcing waver tests. Oh yes, and they zipped through terrain like no-ones business, passed their waver tests all the time and there were huge quantities of them relative to their quality since they didn't waste points on cavalry.

Just so long as the rank and file are all Average I don't mind. Most being unprotected as well would be nice. And cavalry in FOG are both much tougher and much less vulnerable to missiles than in 7th.

The fundamental point though, I suspect, is that rules often have problems with the Americas in that the technology was so different, the population density so different and the object of warfare so different as to make comparisons of troop types difficult. In many ways the Spanish and the Americas were the nearest to First Contact the human race has ever managed.

Though I am willing to bow to the experience of others.

John

------MF Protected, Javelins, Impact Foot, Swordsmen. They are mostly Drilled and vary from Elite to Average


Errrrr. Wow...... Luckily they won't be allowed in BG's of 4 so we won't expect an Aztec Swarm ala the Dom Roms.

IanB3406 wrote:------MF Protected, Javelins, Impact Foot, Swordsmen. They are mostly Drilled and vary from Elite to Average


Errrrr. Wow...... Luckily they won't be allowed in BG's of 4 so we won't expect an Aztec Swarm ala the Dom Roms.

Correct

rbodleyscott wrote: OK Steve, just for you, the Tupi are mostly MF, Protected or Unprotected, Bow*, Heavy Weapon.

Send in the skilled swordsman conquistidor.

Can I use my ancient Nubians as Tupi? Really well-tanned Tupi, mind you?

hazelbark wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote: OK Steve, just for you, the Tupi are mostly MF, Protected or Unprotected, Bow*, Heavy Weapon.

Send in the skilled swordsman conquistidor.

Surely for conquistadors, you just want the Tlaxcalan list. Add a 4-base BG of HF superior, drilled, armoured skilled swordmen (1/2) and MF superior, drilled, armoured firearm (1/2). And a 2-base BG of heavy artillery. Pretty much the right ratio wasn't it?

HannibalBarca wrote:

hazelbark wrote:

rbodleyscott wrote: OK Steve, just for you, the Tupi are mostly MF, Protected or Unprotected, Bow*, Heavy Weapon.

Send in the skilled swordsman conquistidor.

Surely for conquistadors, you just want the Tlaxcalan list. Add a 4-base BG of HF superior, drilled, armoured skilled swordmen (1/2) and MF superior, drilled, armoured firearm (1/2). And a 2-base BG of heavy artillery. Pretty much the right ratio wasn't it?

This is true for the Aztecs.

On the other hand, the Inca Empire, which could field armies of 100,000 men (400 bases) without difficulty, was conquered by less than 250 (1 base of) Spaniards.

Shame about the inca sling. The rules seem to suggest the only requirement for slinger capability is the possession of a sling. Still I'll wait to see what these slingless close combat specialists are before I start crying in to my guinea pig taco.

Martin

hazelbark wrote:MF with javelins?

Drilled at that!

In spite of my promise not to cry in to my taco I have been rereading your post on this and dwelling upon the prospects of my Incas under FOG.

We appreciate that Javelins capability is free, but consider that that merely goes some way towards compensating for the disadvantages of an army list containing no mounted troops, no heavy foot and no Armour. This is particularly important as "Blood and Gold" theme tournaments are unlikely to occur very often (if at all), so they need to be viable in Open tournaments.

All of this would also apply equally to the Incas and sling. Do the Incas need to be viable in open tournaments as well?

Sadly, although all Incas trained with the sling, our interpretation of their battlefield behaviour led us not to give Sling capability to close combat troops (MF). They do, however, have very large numbers of LF slingers

.

Large numbers of LF sling backed up by lightly equipped MF is going to have a very tough time indeed against pretty much everything

P130 of the rules defines sling capability as "foot armed with slings". It does not require it to be their primary weapon or for them to operate in a certain formation. No one, to my knowledge, disputes that Incas of all classes pretty much never left home without their sling. It would seem to verge on a rules change not to give Incas sling.

Even with sling, Incas are frankly going to be pretty marginal at best. The small evading formations with overly effective firepower that made them too powerfull under 7th are gone anyway. Sling at least gives them something unique and interesting and perhaps more of a chance. Without sling it could be paint stripper and sinker mould time for the Inca's, unless you are so passionately devoted to the history you feel no need to win any games .

Martin

My old, old grey cells seem to recall that those Spanish New World conquerors usually had local allies more than happy to fight against the area's top dog and its allies. Further, the Spanish conquerors were willing to um....use a different version of truth when dealing the native rulers.

Then of course there was the introduction of "Western ills". hey, hey.....everybody......free blankets, get your free blankets!!

CrazyHarborc wrote:My old, old grey cells seem to recall that those Spanish New World conquerors usually had local allies more than happy to fight against the area's top dog and its allies. Further, the Spanish conquerors were willing to um....use a different version of truth when dealing the native rulers.

Then of course there was the introduction of "Western ills". hey, hey.....everybody......free blankets, get your free blankets!!

True but there are a number of situations where a small group of europeans took on and massacred a gigantic number of locals in hand-to-hand and firearm to flesh at close range. I think the Incas even ambushed the spanish in a town square and came off disasterously.

marty wrote:

Sadly, although all Incas trained with the sling, our interpretation of their battlefield behaviour led us not to give Sling capability to close combat troops (MF). They do, however, have very large numbers of LF slingers

.

P130 of the rules defines sling capability as "foot armed with slings". It does not require it to be their primary weapon or for them to operate in a certain formation. No one, to my knowledge, disputes that Incas of all classes pretty much never left home without their sling. It would seem to verge on a rules change not to give Incas sling.

Don't be silly. See both the quote from Richard included and also the explanation in the rules about capabilities - possession of a weapon does not automatically lead to a related capability.

what of the first issue of granting some hope to the Aztecs, but not the Incas, when both armies face similiar handicaps? It is not as if granting them sling would be some outlandish bolt from the blue that would bring howls of outrage. Indeed when there was some speculation as to the classification of meso americans some months ago the only opinions expressed on Incas all assumed sling as a starting point.

On the second point, dont know that its all that silly, when more than mere possession is required this is generally explained (or at least hinted at) in the capability descriptions. It is easy to see from the descriptions how you can have a spear but not be a spearmen. Not so in the case of sling

Martin