Slitherine

David you make some really good points. I've been thinking about the value of armored lancers in FoG, as you say, faster then knights and more maneuverable.

The Meroviginian and Carologinian lists in Wolves from the Sea can have a number of armored cavalry lancers--giving them a good punch. Adding in the offensive spear foot option with the former and look out

Cheers,

Dale

Absolutly agree Dale, Frankish armies in Wolves from the sea are very attractive, and should work very good with historical deployments, and this kind of armies are no very diffcult to play, the Drilled cavalry works better in flanks, and the undrilled ones can be used frontally.

Maybe These armies have some problems in rough battlefield because it have a few ligh and medium infantry, but the the fun is guaranteed

Lancer cavalry are a rapier, they need to be inserted at the right point and the right time. If you line up and charge knights you are likely to lose. If you can pull the knights into a poor situation and hit them with a flank charge......

Yes, I ussually pull the enemy Knighs out of the main Battleline using skirmiserhs, and then I face them with my Defensive spearmen and the armoured Cavalry in their flanks, other times, cavalry frontally and in the flank. I love the drilled cavalry, you can move 5 Mus and turn 90º to face the enemy flank with an only CMT, if you are supported by a General (Better if IC) it´s easy to do.


David

Mind you, Knights are even better,

The new lists for the Normans are particularly interesting. Armoured Lancer Cavalry one day, Armoured Knights the other.

You wonder what happened on that fine morning in 1041 when the Normans woke up and found they were twice as combat effective as they were yesterday

John

hammy wrote:Lancer cavalry are a rapier, they need to be inserted at the right point and the right time. If you line up and charge knights you are likely to lose. If you can pull the knights into a poor situation and hit them with a flank charge......

It will be interesting to see how many Cavalry Lancer Armoured Armies there are in the Open event at challange. Not very many if last years armies are anything to go by.

david53 wrote:

hammy wrote:Lancer cavalry are a rapier, they need to be inserted at the right point and the right time. If you line up and charge knights you are likely to lose. If you can pull the knights into a poor situation and hit them with a flank charge......

It will be interesting to see how many Cavalry Lancer Armoured Armies there are in the Open event at challange. Not very many if last years armies are anything to go by.

I suspect that the numbers will increase over time, as players gain more skill at using the extra maneuverability of CV--as opposed to KN--to their advantage. I really like lancer cav myself, as being big fun to zoom around with.

Marc

babyshark wrote:

david53 wrote:

hammy wrote:Lancer cavalry are a rapier, they need to be inserted at the right point and the right time. If you line up and charge knights you are likely to lose. If you can pull the knights into a poor situation and hit them with a flank charge......

It will be interesting to see how many Cavalry Lancer Armoured Armies there are in the Open event at challange. Not very many if last years armies are anything to go by.

I suspect that the numbers will increase over time, as players gain more skill at using the extra maneuverability of CV--as opposed to KN--to their advantage. I really like lancer cav myself, as being big fun to zoom around with.

Marc

That big zoom is one inch difference, and drilled knights are highly manouvorable and lancer armed cavalry also have to test not to charge. Maybe I have faced people who can use Knight armies well. I still think it will be a while before you see then used in open comp in themed events I'm sure they'll be fine. I'll keep count in april will be good to see this year out of the

david53 wrote:That big zoom is one inch difference, and drilled knights are highly manouvorable and lancer armed cavalry also have to test not to charge. Maybe I have faced people who can use Knight armies well. I still think it will be a while before you see then used in open comp in themed events I'm sure they'll be fine. I'll keep count in april will be good to see this year out of the

Drilled knights are a very different beast to undrilled ones. Undrilled cavalry are almost as maneuverable as drilled knights. Very few armies have drilled knights in any quantity.

hammy wrote:

david53 wrote:That big zoom is one inch difference, and drilled knights are highly manouvorable and lancer armed cavalry also have to test not to charge. Maybe I have faced people who can use Knight armies well. I still think it will be a while before you see then used in open comp in themed events I'm sure they'll be fine. I'll keep count in april will be good to see this year out of the

Drilled knights are a very different beast to undrilled ones. Undrilled cavalry are almost as maneuverable as drilled knights. Very few armies have drilled knights in any quantity.

The cavat there are is in the quanity of Drilled Knights 11 armies out of a total in storms of arrows have the majority of their Cav as Drilled Knights of 34 thats roughly 30% not a bad total really.

Later Low countries 12 Bases out of 12 Mounted
Later German 24 bases out of 32 mounted
English 100years up to 6 bases out of 12 Mounted in France
English 100 years war in UK 6 Bases out of 12 mounted
Wars of the roses English 6 bases out of 10 mounted
Later Anglo Irish 4 bases out of 8 bases mounted
Ordonnance French 22 Bases out of 32 Mounted
Free Company 12 Bases out 12 Mounted
swiss 8 bases out of 12 mounted
Italian 36 bases out of 72 mounted
Crown of Aragon 16 bases out of 16 mounted

david53 wrote:

hammy wrote:Drilled knights are a very different beast to undrilled ones. Undrilled cavalry are almost as maneuverable as drilled knights. Very few armies have drilled knights in any quantity.

The caveat is in the quanity of Drilled Knights 11 armies out of a total in storms of arrows have the majority of their Cav as Drilled Knights of 34 thats roughly 30% not a bad total really.
<snip>

But as a BG of 4 drilled knights cost in the order of 100 points you really don;t see that many of them on the table.

I have never fielded more than 2 BGs of drilled knights and with only a couple of BGs I am not that sure they were worth having. More drilled knights just means you end up paying for them as drilled and using them as undrilled.

Perhaps I should lend you an Ordonance French army and take it on with Sarmatians

hammy wrote:

david53 wrote:

hammy wrote:Drilled knights are a very different beast to undrilled ones. Undrilled cavalry are almost as maneuverable as drilled knights. Very few armies have drilled knights in any quantity.

The caveat is in the quanity of Drilled Knights 11 armies out of a total in storms of arrows have the majority of their Cav as Drilled Knights of 34 thats roughly 30% not a bad total really.
<snip>

But as a BG of 4 drilled knights cost in the order of 100 points you really don;t see that many of them on the table.

I have never fielded more than 2 BGs of drilled knights and with only a couple of BGs I am not that sure they were worth having. More drilled knights just means you end up paying for them as drilled and using them as undrilled.

Perhaps I should lend you an Ordonance French army and take it on with Sarmatians

Totally agree with you about the points I am trying to organise a 650 points Later German 1450 for the challenge, drilled knights average 21 points is a lot.
Steves army at the club that I took on had 3 BG Average drilled knights along with 2 BG of Cav lancers makes up a good force that can be hard to stop. As well as the fact fact you lose the Lance against other lancers and the double dice they get, it can be hard going. Being drilled Knights against undrilled Lancers seems to make a lot of difference.

Perhaps I should lend you an Ordonance French army and take it on with Sarmatians Wink

I'm volunteer ! .... with my french ordonance list.

olivier wrote:

Perhaps I should lend you an Ordonance French army and take it on with Sarmatians Wink

I'm volunteer ! .... with my french ordonance list.

I am tempted to accept but the question would be when we could find time.

I think I am due to play a mega battle on the Friday of the Challenge and time to play games at Britcon is something I never seem to find.

Come to Moncheaux , near Lille.
Good beer, nice people and great comp!
It' s in May 2 and 3rd.
we find certainly some time to fight this battle.

olivier wrote:Come to Moncheaux , near Lille.
Good beer, nice people and great comp!
It' s in May 2 and 3rd.
we find certainly some time to fight this battle.

If I get a job, I will seriously consider it. Until I get a job tournaments in the UK are about all I can justify

madaxeman wrote:Following on from the Byzantine thread, there are stacks of lists who's main strike force is lancer cavalry - but usually with a variaty of options from average protected to armoured superior.

Where the list gives you the luxury of choice, is there a consensus on which permutation is the best to choose?
Should they be in 4's or 6's?
Is there any other tactic other than "stack them all up at one edge of the table and charge at anything in their way?
How do you protect the flanks of your strike force in this situation - are foot or LH better for this?

I don't know whether 4's or 6's are best, but I know rolling 6's is better than rolling 4's. Sometimes you'll be disadvantaged .

Ian

DaiSho wrote:Where the list gives you the luxury of choice, is there a consensus on which permutation is the best to choose?
Should they be in 4's or 6's?

IMO 4s are best for the ones that you will try to get into sneaky places and hit people's flanks which is my main way of using lancers.

If you have to line up and get stuck in then 6s with a general have merit but I am not sure if by doing that you aren't reinforcing failure or at least minimising a weakness rather than maximising a strength.

For me the best thing about lancers is the -1 on enemy CTs. If you can hit a flank with them you get a -1 for lance, -1 for disrupted, -1 for 1 per 3 and with a bit of luck -1 for winning by 2. That gives a very good chance of fragmentation and should you win by 2 a very nice chance of breaking your target in one move.

hammy wrote:I have never fielded more than 2 BGs of drilled knights and with only a couple of BGs I am not that sure they were worth having. More drilled knights just means you end up paying for them as drilled and using them as undrilled.

I once ran a Teutonic Order list that had a battle line of five BGs of knights, the outside two drilled and the inside three undrilled. It worked OK.

jcmedhurst wrote: You wonder what happened on that fine morning in 1041 when the Normans woke up and found they were twice as combat effective as they were yesterday

They decided to conquer the world--a good decision to make on a fine morning. 1041 is the big kick-off in Italy for the Normans as I recall. Oliveto.

hazelbark wrote:

jcmedhurst wrote: You wonder what happened on that fine morning in 1041 when the Normans woke up and found they were twice as combat effective as they were yesterday

They decided to conquer the world--a good decision to make on a fine morning. 1041 is the big kick-off in Italy for the Normans as I recall. Oliveto.

A little exaggerated to speak about world conquer, since in southern Italy arrived just 200 men Enough to give the birth to a dynasty, but a little few to conquer even just Italy

marioslaz wrote:A little exaggerated to speak about world conquer, since in southern Italy arrived just 200 men Enough to give the birth to a dynasty, but a little few to conquer even just Italy

Trying to outdo Belisarius?

[/quote]Totally agree with you about the points I am trying to organise a 650 points Later German 1450 for the challenge, drilled knights average 21 points is a lot.
Steves army at the club that I took on had 3 BG Average drilled knights along with 2 BG of Cav lancers makes up a good force that can be hard to stop. As well as the fact fact you lose the Lance against other lancers and the double dice they get, it can be hard going. Being drilled Knights against undrilled Lancers seems to make a lot of difference.

See the list I posted in the Medieval Germans vs French Ordonnance AAR. Although it focused on the pike, HW combo, and only had one BG of knights, one BG of cav and no cav lancers. In that list, I prefer the cav to the drilled knights because the cav is just as effective in the impact phase, and can move faster.