Slitherine

Of course the being able to screen is a big if when every opposing unit is missile and most with a range of 4.

SpeedyCM wrote:Of course the being able to screen is a big if when every opposing unit is missile and most with a range of 4.

I typically deploy my skirmishers for that thankless duty.

I always played PBEM battles just to enjoy a historical battle between two different army types without worry about balance.

Now that I think of it, that is probably why I lost all my games.

Never mind me sorry carry on.

GiveWarAchance wrote:I always played PBEM battles just to enjoy a historical battle between two different army types without worry about balance.

Now that I think of it, that is probably why I lost all my games.

Never mind me sorry carry on.

I also lose most of my games.

klayeckles wrote:

lapdog666 wrote:i find macedonian 260-168 bc army list to be most op, just crush with pikes , and then burn every single village and city after that. i find carthage amongst weakest unique factions

would you care to test your hypothesis? I'll post a battle with carthage against mac....PW crush

deal, i ll accept the challange as soon as i see it

Any chance we can be kept up to date on progress of this match up?

was checking for the challenge but didnt see it yet, someone might have claimed it before me idk

prepare macedonians, its time for slaughter

Is the Persian army really weak or maybe it is just my skill that is weak? I tried using them a few times and got whipped very quickly and easily by Greek armies. The Persian units look nice but their archers only get one or two turns to shoot before being massacred in detail. I suppose it is realistic considering the Greek hoplites & phalanx were custom designed for defeating the Persians.

GiveWarAchance wrote:Is the Persian army really weak or maybe it is just my skill that is weak? I tried using them a few times and got whipped very quickly and easily by Greek armies. The Persian units look nice but their archers only get one or two turns to shoot before being massacred in detail. I suppose it is realistic considering the Greek hoplites & phalanx were custom designed for defeating the Persians.

Terrain is a key element for victory as Persians.

Okay I should have put the Persians on hills and rough. I remember the Marathon battle with particular grief cause it is an open field so the Persians lost with great speed.

The Persians are inflicted by what I call anti-synergistic point costing in this current version. All units in this game with few exceptions are built on a standard price for abilities. Some of the best units have abilities that work together and others have abilities that work against each other or are abilities which would be rarely used given its core role and not powerful enough for them to be true dual purpose units.

The Persian Immortals and Sparabara are both victims of this, though the Immortals a bit less so. They are really bowman that regularly cost 36 points but are more expensive because they get dressed up in armour with light spear and 50% swords. The problem is those abilities that they have to pay for but doesn't really use. If stuck in combat, 50% swords aren't really going to cut it for close combat against a wide variety of opponents. If real close combat heavy foot or cavalry does get their hands on them, it will still be a severe disadvantage though Immortals being Superior quality means that they are more durable and will hold the line against most 2nd rate foot. The problem is that it costs you 75 points for that and for that kind of money, wouldn't you really want to just get a 36 point bowman and a 36 point real light spear/swordsman unit instead?

FoG2DL have not been kind to this army. There is the one fellow who went 7-0-2 and maybe its just players not understanding how to play it properly.

I consider the foot Persian armies a 'difficult to use well' army. For starters, they need rough terrain to be viable. The cavalry are good, but they're incredibly expensive and I noticed that they often shy away from attacking open flanks while pursuing, something which can be incredibly frustrating to a Persian player whose archers are under siege. Persian immortals are also costly, and I'm not sure they offer enough to be worth the price. (They are truly formidable on rough ground; not sure how they go up against other mediums though). Sparabara are good in archer duels and when positioned on rough ground become quite cost effective, but they struggle against armoured hoplites and even on rough ground generally need to disrupt advancing enemy formations to stand a real chance. They have an impact bonus, which can help keep them safe a while longer if the enemy unit bounces back.

Overall the Persians are very dependent on terrain and they seem to face a lot of counters that makes life difficult for them and particularly their infantry. I've enjoyed mixed success by taking a minimum number of foot and just taking their skirmishers and cavalry, who are genuinely formidable. That said, I haven't played them a huge amount, so I have to limit my conclusions somewhat.

Thank you MikeC and Ludendorf for your detailed & interesting ideas about Persian armies. So basically the Immortals are very expensive hybrids of two mediocre units in a mash-up. I haven't seen how they perform in melee in rough terrain so I'm feeling a little hope for them now. I like the unit graphics in game so I would like to be able to use the Persians more.

There is another very unusual Persian infantry unit I remember that is Darius's bodguard unit in the Gaugamela battle. I think the name sounds like 'apple pickers'. What kind of unit is that and can it only be used for the leader bodyguards?

GiveWarAchance wrote: There is another very unusual Persian infantry unit I remember that is Darius's bodguard unit in the Gaugamela battle. I think the name sounds like 'apple pickers'. What kind of unit is that and can it only be used for the leader bodyguards?

Those are just immortals given a special name by the scenario designer. You won’t see them in skirmish or multiplayer.

shadowblack wrote:Any chance we can be kept up to date on progress of this match up?

match is underway...mac is loaded for bear, carthage is strong in numbers and mobility. carthage has almost encircled the macedonian pincushion...but no real horn locking has happened yet. a few dead mac skirmishers, and a carthage elephant that got hit by an extended charge of frustrated macedonians chasing skirmishers...

thank you jomni

i ll upload some screenshots at the next turn

it ll be in AAR section titled : " makedonia vs Baal worshipers"

klayeckles wrote:

shadowblack wrote:Any chance we can be kept up to date on progress of this match up?

match is underway...mac is loaded for bear, carthage is strong in numbers and mobility. carthage has almost encircled the macedonian pincushion...but no real horn locking has happened yet. a few dead mac skirmishers, and a carthage elephant that got hit by an extended charge of frustrated macedonians chasing skirmishers...

game over...carthage enveloped the macedonian interlopers, and scored a 70-39 victory. rematch is underway

i'm not all that puter savvy, and thus failed to get any vids or screenshots...maybe next game lapdog can do so???
it will be move difficult now that he knows my strategery

The Knockout tournament is currently underway and a quick metagame breakdown for anyone interested.

Horse Archer/Elephant - 5
Horse Archer/Med Foot - 1
Horse Archer/Lancer - 4

Armoured Hoplites - 1
Elephant/Spear - 7

Massbow/Cataphracts - 4

Lancer/ Inf - 17
Swarm Infantry - 4
Impact/Irr Foot - 3
Impact Foot Roman - 2
Pikes - 8
Warbands/Chariots/Cav - 8