Slitherine

bru888 wrote:kondi, you know your stuff. You're right; the OOB for the CCA that I included in the Information folder clearly shows that at least 2/3rds of the Shermans were the short-barreled variety (75). Here's one of the battalions:

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It seems to me there are too few tanks in this battalion you showed (16 vehicles, so many tanks were in the company). Below is organization chart of the US tank battalion from 1944.
In Normandy, there was 1 tank with a 76mm gun in every platoon of medium tanks, which constituted 20% of the vehicles. I know that in Lorraine the situation did not change significantly, especially as Patton and his tankers were not enthusiastic about 76mm guns.
I also know the 4th Armored Division had relatively the smallest saturation of tanks with a larger cannon than other US armoured divisions.

That is a great graphic! Yes, the CCA organization table which I quoted; I'm not sure what it actually is saying because it does look like it's woefully understating the number of units in a battalion. I used it to indicate what units were in the battle for the U.S. and in what proportions. Instead, I think I will follow your graphic.

So, you purist, you are saying to use Sherman Jumbos even though they very, very likely were not at Arracourt at all? Not a bad idea, though, about using them as some sort of prize for doing well in the beginning of the scenario. If I have YOUR blessing to use them, then I may stretch things a bit.

The thing about OOB is that it's good for replicating history on paper, so Shermans vs. Panthers and Panzer IVs should not be a very good matchup at all. That is what OOB will reproduce if everything else is equal. What I am trying to recreate is the fact that the Americans did have a chance to win - did in fact win - because they had superior training, experience, and organization.

But only so much can be done with tinkering German unit experience in OOB so I fear that I will need to reintroduce U.S. resource points for repairs. Plus I am thinking about the P-47s but that could be another OOB reality check; that is, it will swing the pendulum the other way and the Germans will have no chance.

As many of us here have discovered or will discover, single-player scenarios are tough because much depends on how well the sides are balanced, human vs. AI. Otherwise, it's boring one way or the other.

You have my blessing, let it be Jumbo.

Super! Just a bit of truth-stretching. Will do.

bru888 wrote:That is a great graphic! Yes, the CCA organization table which I quoted; I'm not sure what it actually is saying because it does look like it's woefully understating the number of units in a battalion. I used it to indicate what units were in the battle for the U.S. and in what proportions. Instead, I think I will follow your graphic.

So, you purist, you are saying to use Sherman Jumbos even though they very, very likely were not at Arracourt at all? Not a bad idea, though, about using them as some sort of prize for doing well in the beginning of the scenario. If I have YOUR blessing to use them, then I may stretch things a bit.

The thing about OOB is that it's good for replicating history on paper, so Shermans vs. Panthers and Panzer IVs should not be a very good matchup at all. That is what OOB will reproduce if everything else is equal. What I am trying to recreate is the fact that the Americans did have a chance to win - did in fact win - because they had superior training, experience, and organization.

But only so much can be done with tinkering German unit experience in OOB so I fear that I will need to reintroduce U.S. resource points for repairs. Plus I am thinking about the P-47s but that could be another OOB reality check; that is, it will swing the pendulum the other way and the Germans will have no chance.

As many of us here have discovered or will discover, single-player scenarios are tough because much depends on how well the sides are balanced, human vs. AI. Otherwise, it's boring one way or the other.

I am enjoying this discussion -- I don't have much understanding of WWII equipment and this is fascinating.

From a playability perspective, it would be more fun to get some repairs while the game is underway.

conboy

conboy wrote:From a playability perspective, it would be more fun to get some repairs while the game is underway.

Yes, I realized that as I was retreating/retiring my tanks with strength 1 and 2 just to park them someplace. It's more fun to be able to make some repairs; the question is, how much while still maintaining gameplay balance? Do the Germans get the same consideration?

By the way, I will be working in Armored Infantry on the U.S. side and Panzergrenadiers on the German side. That in turn will call for halftracks and Sd.Kfz. 251s. I need to watch out for unit bloat, however; moving too many units gets tedious.

So yeah, I need to make sure that this does not get out of hand. But thanks to you guys, I think this scenario is going to get better.

conboy wrote:I am enjoying this discussion -- I don't have much understanding of WWII equipment and this is fascinating.

Same. I'd like to contribute, but can't. So I'm waiting for those two to come to a conclusion and then just play it...

After some research, here is the Order of Battle that I will use in the rewrite of Arracourt (upcoming version 2.0):

United States 4th Armored Division

35th/37th Tank Battalions, each with three companies (A/B/C), each with:
3 Sherman M4A2 (18 total)
1 Sherman M4A3 76(W) (6 total)
1 Sherman M4A3E2 Jumbo (6 total)
1 M5A1 Stuart (6 total)

10th/53rd Armored Infantry Battalions, each with three companies (A/B/C), each with:
1 Heavy Infantry '44 (6 total)
1 M3A1 Halftrack (transport)

704th Tank Destroyer Battalion with three companies (A/B/C), each with:
2 M18 Hellcat (6 total)

66th/94th Armored Artillery Battalions, each with:
3 M7 Priest (6 total)

191st Field Artillery Battalion with:
3 155MM M1 Long Tom (3 total)
3 Studebaker Truck (transport)

Willys MB .50 Cal (1 total)
Major General John S. Wood (assigned)

Germany 5th Panzer Army

11th Panzer Division with six battalions (I/II/III/IV/V/VI), each with:
1 PzKw V Panther G (6 total)
1 PzKw IV H (6 total)
1 StuG III G (6 total)
1 Nashorn (6 total)
1 Hummel (6 total)

25th Panzergrenadier Division with six battalions (I/II/III/IV/V/VI), each with:
1 Heavy Infantry '44 (6 total)
1 SdKfz 251 (transport)

111th/113th Panzer Brigades, each with three battalions (I/II/III), each with:
1 PzKw V Panther G (6 total)
1 PzKw IV H (6 total)
1 StuG III G (6 total)

SdKfz 222 (1 total)
Gen. Hasso von Manteuffel (assigned)

Some notes:
- It's not exactly accurate, of course, although the structures and units are fairly historical. For one thing, there must have been over 500 tanks and guns involved in the Battle of Arracourt.
- One is a division and the other is an army. I have read that the division was strong while the army was understrength. I tried to make them comparable in numbers of units.
- However, the Germans will again have an advantage in the strengths of their armored units. This is what I am trying to get at and adjust for so the Americans have a chance.

I accept this, but where is the XIX TAC?
I understand that if you add the P-47s, you will have to give the Germans several mobile AA batteries for the counterweight.

Excellent Order of Battle before Arracourt...

kondi754 wrote:I accept this, but where is the XIX TAC?
I understand that if you add the P-47s, you will have to give the Germans several mobile AA batteries for the counterweight.

United States

84th Fighter Wing

365th/405th Fighter Groups, each with three squadrons (386th/387th/388th / 509th/510th/511th), each with:
1 P-47D Thunderbolt (6 total)

4th Armored Division

35th/37th Tank Battalions, each with three companies (A/B/C), each with:
3 Sherman M4A2 (18 total)
1 Sherman M4A3 76(W) (6 total)
1 Sherman M4A3E2 Jumbo (6 total)
1 M5A1 Stuart (6 total)

10th/53rd Armored Infantry Battalions, each with three companies (A/B/C), each with:
1 Heavy Infantry '44 (6 total)
1 M3A1 Halftrack (transport)

704th Tank Destroyer Battalion with three companies (A/B/C), each with:
2 M18 Hellcat (6 total)

66th/94th Armored Artillery Battalions, each with:
3 M7 Priest (6 total)

191st Field Artillery Battalion with:
3 155MM M1 Long Tom (3 total)
3 Studebaker Truck (transport)

Willys MB .50 Cal (1 total)
Major General John S. Wood (assigned)

Germany

5th Panzer Army

11th Panzer Division with six battalions (I/II/III/IV/V/VI), each with:
1 PzKw V Panther G (6 total)
1 PzKw IV H (6 total)
1 StuG III G (6 total)
1 Nashorn (6 total)
1 Hummel (6 total)
1 SdKfz 7/1 (6 total)

25th Panzergrenadier Division with six battalions (I/II/III/IV/V/VI), each with:
1 Heavy Infantry '44 (6 total)
1 SdKfz 251 (transport)

111th/113th Panzer Brigades, each with three battalions (I/II/III), each with:
1 PzKw V Panther G (6 total)
1 PzKw IV H (6 total)
1 StuG III G (6 total)

SdKfz 222 (1 total)
Gen. Hasso von Manteuffel (assigned)

--------------------------------------------

Will there be anything else, my good sir? ( )

The catering truck! You've missed the catering truck!!

It is everything it should be for a good time with the exception of catering truck.

HAH! Thanks for the laugh, guys.

A bit of feedback:- I'm on turn 7 and I like it because the violence is off the scale, I concentrated first on successfully wiping out his entire southern thrust including the Elefants and am now turning my attention to his other thrusts with my battered survivors.
Suggestion- I'd like to see a trickle of about 20 incoming US rep points per turn because part of the FUN of playing OOB is deciding which key units to allocate them to. Jerry AI could also have a trickle to balance it out..

PoorOldSpike wrote:Suggestion- I'd like to see a trickle of about 20 incoming US rep points per turn because part of the FUN of playing OOB is deciding which key units to allocate them to. Jerry AI could also have a trickle to balance it out..

Yes, that will be in version 2.0 which I am working on now.

Incidentally a nice feature of Arracourt is that you can click the shield icon to up-armour your Shermans with sandbags at the cost of slight loss of speed,
way to go..

"It kinda gives you an edge man"

PoorOldSpike wrote:Incidentally a nice feature of Arracourt is that you can click the shield icon to up-armour your Shermans with sandbags at the cost of slight loss of speed, way to go..

Well that's not me, of course, but it does help a bit as I found out. The tradeoff is less mobility but in Arracourt that is not really a problem because it's a defensive battle for the U.S.

Improvised armor is a feature only on Sherman tanks and on all versions of Sherman tanks? It does not require a specialisation? (Note the question marks. I'm not sure but I will look tonight.)

bru888 wrote:...Improvised armor is a feature only on Sherman tanks and on all versions of Sherman tanks? It does not require a specialisation? (Note the question marks. I'm not sure but I will look tonight.)

Here's my findings mate, let me know if your results don't tally with mine-
I lined up OOB's 12x US Shermans in the editor (no Specialisation) and started the scen and found that 8 of them have got the extra armour option.
The 4 that don't have the option are the Jumbo, Zippo, 105mm and Calliope.
I also looked at other US tank types and tank destroyers too, but none of them have the option.
PS- there are 3x Brit Shermans in OOB, I checked them out too and none have the option.

PS again- I've admitted defeat in my first playing of Arracourt because I forgot that Stugs are AT-class and can back up whatever you're shooting at, and I got hung out to dry.
For example if you go one-on-one with your Sherman against a Panther, you take return fire from the Panther AND the friggin Stug which has got its back!

I celebrate your defeat! Uh, I mean, tough going, mate. Better luck next time! Heh.

Thanks for the information on the Shermans. That is an interesting feature, especially in this scenario.

No spec needed. Units with enhanced armour switch (gives the "unreliable" trait, like the German Tiger, BTW)

M4A1 japan
M4A1 usa
M4A2 usa
M4A3_76W usa
M4A3E8_76W usa
M4A1 china
M4A2 china
M4A3_76W china
M4A3E8_76W china