Slitherine

proline wrote: Now one time I got a 12.8cm with both a range and movement hero. I overstregthed him to 15. He could one-shot anything that got within 6(!) hexes of him. Even armored bombers. That's ridiculously good.

Сongratulations ! You have win a PzC !

Are you happy now ?

goose_2 wrote: Artillery:
The Good: Attack, Range, Movement (In this order and they can be just so awesome to get every single time)

Apologies for resurrecting this thread, but I don't understand this particular bit of advice.

My understanding was that Range/Movement heroes were the preferred ones for artillery.

I'm certain that it has to do with my incomplete knowledge of the combat mathematics, but I'd like to know what your reasoning is.

This post was started with Big Sarcasm on it from my vision PzC.
Of coz, "Heroes" mechanics in PzC sometimes looking attractive, but stupid.
Im still don't understand +1 Range for Artillery ...

What is a range hero? A good question.
Assume that most artillery combat occurs at less than maxium range and is limited by available ammunition stocks, wear on the gun barrels, ability to locate and hit targets ect.
What could make you either better able to engage long range targets or get you allocated the more specialist longer range fire missions?

Above-average targetting skills (in speed of gun laying, battery set up, technical depth of ballistics and knowledge of your gun characteristics);
better spotting skills so you predict and correct your aim faster would (a really good forward observation team and gun laying team).
Your commander might need a specialist longer range unit and you're it - here's the extra powerful charges, here's the quality controlled guns, here's the experimental range tables, here's the latest range finding gear, here's an extra 10% ammo allowance per day so you can have a go at more marginal ranges etc....

I'm sure there's some former gunners out there who could add to this or correct the errors.

While I do think that there should be some kind of script that keeps certain heroes away from certain units(ex +1 move for planes), I come back to the fact that every game has its unique limitations.

I use a certain explanation(or delusion) to explain heroes. Most of them center on stacking units on the same hex.

Panzer General was developed from Avalon Hill games that I, and other old-timers, know very well. I still have the complete "Advanced Squad Leader" set and "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich". Hence my handle here.

Panzer Corps is the direct child of PG.

In Avalon Hill games, units can be stacked on a hex. We cannot do that here.

For example... artillery. Arty in this game is usually "over-ranged", to make up for the lack of stack. Don't think of it as "behind" the front units, think of them as just to the rear, but still within the Forward Battle Area. On the border between two hexes if you must.

A range hero on arty is explained in my mind as a commander with the chestnuts to move his guns as far forward as possible, as well as the ability and equipment(new barrels) to project fire farther.

However, I do believe that limits should be coded in. No more than a single range or movement hero on ANY unit. My suspension of disbelief only goes so far.

captainjack wrote:What is a range hero? A good question.
Assume that most artillery combat occurs at less than maxium range and is limited by available ammunition stocks, wear on the gun barrels, ability to locate and hit targets ect.
What could make you either better able to engage long range targets or get you allocated the more specialist longer range fire missions?

Above-average targetting skills (in speed of gun laying, battery set up, technical depth of ballistics and knowledge of your gun characteristics);
better spotting skills so you predict and correct your aim faster would (a really good forward observation team and gun laying team).
Your commander might need a specialist longer range unit and you're it - here's the extra powerful charges, here's the quality controlled guns, here's the experimental range tables, here's the latest range finding gear, here's an extra 10% ammo allowance per day so you can have a go at more marginal ranges etc....

I'm sure there's some former gunners out there who could add to this or correct the errors.

That's a great breakdown. Technique and technology is huge with artillery.

Mechanical computers, high quality radios, and spotting aircraft would be examples of that part of the equation, which many less privileged units would not have access to.

First time playing the GC. I got defense heroes in almost all my units, which was really annoying at first but I accepted it anyways.

It seems, and correct me if I'm wrong, the AI avoids attacking my units that have defense heroes. It just moves its units up to my defense line and attacks only the weakest units (if any). I think this is kind of funny tbh.

auda wrote:First time playing the GC. I got defense heroes in almost all my units, which was really annoying at first but I accepted it anyways.

It seems, and correct me if I'm wrong, the AI avoids attacking my units that have defense heroes. It just moves its units up to my defense line and attacks only the weakest units (if any). I think this is kind of funny tbh.

A second reason may be you have positioned your units well - backed up by artillery.

Kradschutzen... 3 star... +1 move... +1 spot.

Department of Redundancy Department.

:/

AnalogGamer wrote:Kradschutzen... 3 star... +1 move... +1 spot.

Department of Redundancy Department.

:/

Yep. But without 3 star

AnalogGamer wrote:Kradschutzen... 3 star... +1 move... +1 spot.

Kradschutzen with spotting hero gives you 4 in total, which is 2 in bad weather - handy in snow, cloud and rain - so not that bad.
I'd agree that the move hero is a bit meh unless you are using a mod with recon move for kradschutzen (eg Nico's mod).

When it gets to 43, a 4 move gebirgsjager with 3 spotting sounds OK, and a 3 move pio or grenadier with 3 spotting is particularly useful in cities, but also good in the open.
Sure I'd prefer a 3D or 3A, but +1spot and +1 move can be a useful combination.

Yeah, it made me laugh more than anything else when I got the second hero. I did not consider the rain/snow implications either. Upgrading to another unit type is probably its fate anyway. That thing could get itself in trouble. Being able to see what is about to kill you is cold comfort indeed.

I am in the process of learning mods, so may have to get Nico's and look into the recon move changes for units. I am putting recon move on select units(partisans) in the campaign I am making.

One supposes that the mods in use would alter the perception of hero utility on a per-unit basis. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

captainjack wrote:

AnalogGamer wrote:Kradschutzen... 3 star... +1 move... +1 spot.

Kradschutzen with spotting hero gives you 4 in total, which is 2 in bad weather - handy in snow, cloud and rain - so not that bad.
I'd agree that the move hero is a bit meh unless you are using a mod with recon move for kradschutzen (eg Nico's mod).

When it gets to 43, a 4 move gebirgsjager with 3 spotting sounds OK, and a 3 move pio or grenadier with 3 spotting is particularly useful in cities, but also good in the open.
Sure I'd prefer a 3D or 3A, but +1spot and +1 move can be a useful combination.

Yes.

I tend to use a lot of Pioniere units, so I find it strange that someone would complain about +1 movement on infantry.

I also like to upgrade a couple of the special "hero" units like Josef Allerberger and Helmut Wirnsberger to Kradschutzen, just for fun. Not sure how much it helps me win.

I have 2 +1 Spot Kradschutzen that I use for recon purposes and love being able to spot 2 in inclement weather, spot 4 is even better in clear or cloudy, 1 was given a +1 Initiative 2nd hero, but I am hoping for a 2nd Spotting hero on my other one. +5 Spotting would be awesome

I like my biker units to have attack, defense and initiative heroes that make them useful as general purpose infantry.

Like I said, there's a sort of fun factor to it, but it's also an exercise in making good use of inexpensive units that help keep me under the cap.

I use the MPC 35-39 / 40 mod and until well into 1940 my infantry consists of 7x Kradschutzen. Best way of gathering heroes and then accordingly exchange them for other infantry.

I got a Movement hero on my Elefant, and although it might not be the best, it comes quite handy so this slow unit can keep up with the spearheads.

auda wrote:I got a Movement hero on my Elefant, and although it might not be the best, it comes quite handy so this slow unit can keep up with the spearheads.

I would say that Movement +1 is the best possible hero to get for your Elefant.

In the later campaigns I prefer to have almost all of my tanks and tank destroyers to have a movement of six or more. Once you get to 1944 your forces tend to get spread very thin, so having forces you can easily move from one area of the map to another is huge.

I just got a +3 defence hero on my lone Tiger II at Minsk44. I was hoping for an attack, initiative or movement hero but you can't have everything.

loganfive wrote: I would say that Movement +1 is the best possible hero to get for your Elefant.

Yes, you are right. At first I was a little disappointed but after using it for a mission or two I realized how beneficial it is.
Even the two +1 sight heroes on my most experienced Tiger (417) turned out ok. I have a very strong scout lol

edit: after units hit the 350+ mark, experience rises very slow.

I upgraded my bikers to pioneers and grenadiers. They rock early, but fade by '43. I have actual recon units, and a lot spotting heroes spread around my force. Three-move Pioneers are nice.

+1 Move on all three Tigers(one has +2 Move), and +1 Init and/or +1 Defense on all three Panthers this time around. The +2 Move is Elephant-bound.