Slitherine

"Rome was not built in a day."

I see what you did there! That was my hope.

... Archon engine?

*cough*

Yes

Great!

Hmmm ...... I don't know much about the Archon engine, other than that it is in-house 3D.

This immediately puts me in mind of Rome Total War; buggy, unhistorical; glitz over gameplay.

The graphic style of P&S and SJ is excellent and evocative of the eras portrayed. I'm not sure what 3D is going to bring to the table and, given there is a finite amount of time to develop a game, a lot more of it is going to have to be spent on 'looks'.

For fantasy games like the upcoming Sanctus Reach it is probably fine, given relatively low unit count but for large-scale historical battles will it be up to the task?

Not being pessimistic but my experience is such that, as the graphic side of things gets more focus, gameplay elements and AI tend to take second place.

Hopefully this series will prove to be the exception to the rule.

P&S and SJ are already 3D... The way that the developer chooses to render their visuals has zero impact on the gameplay. For modern games and expectations, 3D actually reduces the amount of time and effort required to produce a game. Your concerns are unfounded

Cheers

Pip

jimcrowley wrote:Not being pessimistic but my experience is such that, as the graphic side of things gets more focus, gameplay elements and AI tend to take second place.

This is not going to happen.

pipfromslitherine wrote:P&S and SJ are already 3D... The way that the developer chooses to render their visuals has zero impact on the gameplay. For modern games and expectations, 3D actually reduces the amount of time and effort required to produce a game. Your concerns are unfounded
Pip

Good to hear, Pip and Richard

The 3D visuals in P&S and SJ are fairly basic in comparison to what I have seen in the screenshots for Sanctus Reach and my worry was that, at that level of detail, other areas might suffer.

jimcrowley wrote:

pipfromslitherine wrote:P&S and SJ are already 3D... The way that the developer chooses to render their visuals has zero impact on the gameplay. For modern games and expectations, 3D actually reduces the amount of time and effort required to produce a game. Your concerns are unfounded
Pip

Good to hear, Pip and Richard

The 3D visuals in P&S and SJ are fairly basic in comparison to what I have seen in the screenshots for Sanctus Reach and my worry was that, at that level of detail, other areas might suffer.

No reason why they should. The graphics and gameplay/AI work are done by entirely different people. Of course the whole process takes somewhat longer, but the end result should be worth the wait.

IMHO, the only drawback for true 3d is modding. Even I can edit/create "3d" isometric stuff using GIMP or Paint.net etc. Most people likely do not have access to 3d programs , cost and knowledge how to use being the limiting factors. If it was even remotely easy, I think someone would have made a 3d model for elephants or mammoths for P&S at this point!

Anyway cant wait to see where the new , ahem, ancients game, lands graphic wise. I personally would be intrigued if they modelled units similar to say 5 mm or 10 mm TT figures but if they ended up looking like the units from the Tin Soldiers games by Matrix, that would be great too.

Your point is only true for fairly simple static 2D images. And frankly gamers expect a lot more these days - and are happy to say so. So if your 2D requirements are for 4K-quality images with 100s of frames of animation then you are likely to be building a 3D model to generate it anyway

Cheers

Pip

Give me some siege engines, and I don't care what era it is - Roman to whatever - anything else can be modded.
Now it is possible Richard is deliberately toying with us..."Rome wasn't built in a day" may refer to the content, or he may be saying, "Christmas is out of the question!"
My preferred period would be Dark Ages but I can't believe there would be enough of a market to make it worth Slitherine's time and money.

If Pike & Shot is a reliable indication, it will be great, whatever it is: playable and modable, with great support from the designer.

Hope we see accurate Graphics representation of number of soldiers, their flags/ shields and any additional weapons and equipment, that will be great for historic immersion for any period.
As Matrix/ Slitherine always proofed through many years, they never made the gameplay a second focus, graphics upgrade is required to follow the latest technological advance however, and they already did that many times, I am glad that they always stick to their philosophy, unlike many other publishers/developers.

Bronze Age/ Iron Age!

A rarely treated subject in true wargames. I don´t think I´ve ever seen a single serious effort. War chariots rumbling across the battlefield, Achilles´Myrmidions at the mighty walls of Ilion.. all the color and drama The Bible, Iliad and the holy books of Ancient India can offer.. Now that would be something.

Not that much is actually known about Bronze age warfare. How were chariots actually used in battle? Or infantry for that matter. What tactical innovations did away with the noble charioteers during the Great Collapse? Pretty much the final frontier of wargaming. Plenty of room for all sorts of interesting interpretations for ambitious modders.

I wonder if that would work on P&S as it is.. I have a feeling it might. Well..

Henry

Will the next game in the series utilize leaders? And will there be a campaign aspect to it, hopefully more fully fleshed out?

SteveD64 wrote:Will the next game in the series utilize leaders? And will there be a campaign aspect to it, hopefully more fully fleshed out?

Yes, Yes and Yes

Sold!

rbodleyscott wrote:

SteveD64 wrote:Will the next game in the series utilize leaders? And will there be a campaign aspect to it, hopefully more fully fleshed out?

Yes, Yes and Yes

Hmmm, must admit that for me the use of leaders - if it's anything like Sengoku Jidai - would be a big minus rather than a plus. I find the command and control system in Sengoku somewhat fiddly and frustrating to use. I still like Sengoku and play it from time to time, and I DO realise that my view about leaders may well be a minority one...

A good editor, powerful and user friendly, is an absolute must. For me, it´s far more important than the choice of historical period as a capable editor can stretch the time period hundred years either way, maybe more multiplying the games playability and interest.

P&S editor is very good, one of the best I´ve ever seen but I must admit that modding data files and graphics with half a dozen separate third party mini editors does look a little complicated.. I´m determined to give it a try though.

As for the period, Rome is fine, I guess, not my first choice but with a good editor you should be able to utilize many peripheral but interesting armies and conflicts. All in all, future looks bright.

Henry

It will be interesting to see how light troops are handled. Will light infantry be able to interpenetrate heavy troops? The use of elephants and camels adds interesting dynamics. Will the basic FOG mini rules be used regarding these?