Slitherine

thx to Kerensky for the data on tanks

I got curious on that whole matter and googled several infos on the hitting power of the Ju 87g
First Fact is it had no diving brakes and no sirens so basically it was not a dive bomber anymore

then there are several sources about the hitting power of the autocannons that had just 12 rounds and had to be reloaded on the ground
so you better made good use of your ammo to be effective at all

Now to the data on the cannons

under wings two 37-mm BK 3.7 cannons (80 rpm, velocity 2,790 ft.sec), fed by clips of six rounds
Armour penetration at 30° of guns 68 mm on 100 meters; 43 mm on 500 meters; 22 mm at 1,000 meters; 17 mm at 1,500 meters

http://ww2-weapons.com/ju-87g/
source i 'll give is from a game site but consistent to several other sources mostly in several ww2 forums
I just link the source as it a lot more readable than other stuff and last not least it also has a link to the Hs129 with its 7,5cm Pak attached
http://ww2-weapons.com/hs-129/

beneath fuselage One 75-mm BK 7.5 (PaK 40L) cannon (40 rpm, velocity 3,060 ft.sec) with 26 rounds.
Armour pentration if the gun at 30° 143 mm on 100 meters; 120 mm on 500 meters; 97 mm on 1,000 meters; 77 mm on 1,500 meters

text says this plane for sure has a lot more hitting power but was very hard control and fly and the impulse of the shot made it difficult to fire multiple shots on a single tank attack

so this plane was just not as effective even if armed better in theory. But you can't destroy what you can't hit

so based on Kerensky's T34 scheme this tanks defense armor is basically not strong enough if a Ju87g hits it from a 500 Meter Distance or less

and the HS 129 is deadly on hits from a distances of 1500 Meters and probably even beyond that

so in the Ju87g it comes down to the guts of the pilot to get close enough and of course of the precision he releases his shots with

If Rudel then probably flied about approx. a thousand raids during ww2 with a Ju87g he just needed a hitting accuracy of approximately 4% (or 1 good hit every 2 air raids on a basically defenseless target) to destroy 500 tanks with an amount of 12000 bullets on board. Not meant to belittle Rudels career as a pilot. But the percentages needed to accomplish his kills seem to be a little less out of this world if you crunch the numbers

ok now enough of this ww2 sidestories back to the game

hurly wrote:If Rudel then probably flied about approx. a thousand raids during ww2 with a Ju87g he just needed a hitting accuracy of approximately 4% (or 1 good hit every 2 air raids on a basically defenseless target) to destroy 500 tanks with an amount of 12000 bullets on board. Not meant to belittle Rudels career as a pilot. But the percentages needed to accomplish his kills seem to be a little less out of this world if you crunch the numbers

First, he flew closer to a shocking 2500 raids- nearly two a day, rain or shine. That's amazing. Second, his kills against other vehicles, artillery, trains, etc. moved his number of kills per per mission up probably well higher than 50%. Third, 300 of those tank kills were in the last year of the war when the USSR had air superiority. His aircraft was shot down 30 times. Much of his flying was low-level and within easy range of ground air defense. In short, his enemies were far, far from defenseless.

proline wrote:

hurly wrote:If Rudel then probably flied about approx. a thousand raids during ww2 with a Ju87g he just needed a hitting accuracy of approximately 4% (or 1 good hit every 2 air raids on a basically defenseless target) to destroy 500 tanks with an amount of 12000 bullets on board. Not meant to belittle Rudels career as a pilot. But the percentages needed to accomplish his kills seem to be a little less out of this world if you crunch the numbers

First, he flew closer to a shocking 2500 raids- nearly two a day, rain or shine. That's amazing. Second, his kills against other vehicles, artillery, trains, etc. moved his number of kills per per mission up probably well higher than 50%. Third, 300 of those tank kills were in the last year of the war when the USSR had air superiority. His aircraft was shot down 30 times. Much of his flying was low-level and within easy range of ground air defense. In short, his enemies were far, far from defenseless.

well I said Rudel

then probably flied about approx. a thousand raids during ww2 with a Ju87g

which seems to be a pretty accurate number considering he was honored for 1000 air raids before the Ju87G even appeared in combat in 1943
Rudel also switched to a FW190f later on if you substract these numbers from his total

Then to the type of typical air raids Rudel flew with the ju87g

basically these planes shoot one bullet a piece from each Autocannon providing the 87g with 6 attacks (probably less since the video I linked shows that multiple shots were regularly fired at the targets.)
so with these rate of fire the Ju87g is quicklöy out of ammo while basically they are called by groung troops to strike and repell incoming tank attacks fire their stuff at them and probably clean up other targets with the leftover ammo.
It's highly unlikely that a tank rush is backed up heavily by pretty immobile antiair so I assume the typical Ju87g air raid goes like this
Start from an useabale airfield close to the front lines and attack onrushing tanks as reported by German ground troops. So probably not a lot of searching and flying over enemy ground, go in there, strike quickly, out of ammo after 6 (or less) attacks and go back to your airfield as quickly as possible to reload and refuel (which might not even be necessary all the time) then go airborne again asap and attack the next targets already spotted and called for by ground troops.

So probably not a lot of expose to antiair and certainly no interest to engage with enemy aircraft at all. The fact that enemy fighters trying to shoot you down have to go after you flying back to your airfield mostly over friendly ground helps a lot.
I can imagine that on a busy day with heavy combat 10 raids per day is not an uncommon occurrence. SO the total of 2500 and about 1000 in the Ju87g airraids is certainly quite an accomplishment for a pilot, probably not for a Squadron of these planes even if they are done with multiple pilots. Not sure if bad weather is helpful or not for these tank hunting attacks. Certainly harder to attack precisely, defintely more safety from enemy fighter attacks as well. So maybe weather not as much a factor for Rudel after all as for enemy fighters providing cover.

Just speculating on a normal day takeoff and landing was more dangerous for these raids (depending on the level of air superiority the Russians had by then) than the combat itself as antiair and enemy fighters never knew exactly where the tankhunters will strike while the ground targets and their positions are pretty well known coming in on them.

Well and also surviving 30 times shot down is certainly a feat, but we have no data what shot down exactly means. That can vary from from just having to do an emergency landing because the plan was not able to reach their airfields up to what we imagine going down with wings or other vital parts of the planes lost and going into an uncontrollable stall. Still speculating here the emergency landing on a flat spot somewhere is more common than the crash and burn type. The trick is returning to home soil if possible or just not get caught by ground forces if that was not possible. Still this is very different from airraids the Strat Bombers do. Not a lot of time apporoaching targets over hostile country, probably even less time flying back over hostile ground. And we don't know about the air cover provided by german fighters for such raids. The numbers of takedowns for the German Fighter Aces seem to imply that even with Soviet Air Superioty they were more than capable do an efficient job shooting down enemy planes in large numbers.

But all of these are mute poits to the point I wanted to made in the first place (accuracy needed for Rudel in a Ju87g to hunt down 500+ tanks) and you tried to dilute with basically correct numbers that may have no big value on this matter.

If a Ju87g attacks a tank or any other moving ground target the ground target is likely in a very helpless position to defend itself. And according to the massive amount of tanks and other stuff marching forward there were plenty of them to pick from.

The trick for a Ju87g pilot is not to get into any retaliation at all, go back to your airfield asap reload and do the next raid in a hurry.

But as I tried to argue what accuracy is needed to accomplish Rudel numbers in kills per raid, it would be intersting to have some data to compare from other Ju87g pilots even those more unlucky in their career. It is very well possible that some unheralded dudes that had just a few flights accomplished a even or higher hitting accuracy than Rudel himself.

I also have no idea about the tactics of Ju87g attacks and all, but since the Germans used a Hero System for Fighter Pilots where the TopGuns had one (Rotte) or even more Planes with them that had just the Task to cover the Leader from enemy Attacks, it is very well possible that Rudel as the most highly decorated German Soldier in WW2 also was flying under special Cover later on.

Or maybe he was just a crazy Dude that did not bother for any danger and got more than his fair Share of Luck.

My main point is that your estimate of 6% accuracy doesn't take into account that many of those rounds were fired at, and hit, non-tank targets. It seems likely that, at least late in his career, his accuracy was higher than that.