Slitherine

I like it. Much more realistic. Less men in a unit makes it that much harder to hit/kill them.

Dont bunch up, men!

I've read both sides of this issue, pro and con. I've been back and forth with it, as you see from earlier in this thread. Here's my decision: I am giving The Artistocrats credit for knowing what they are doing and I am going with the flow. I figure that, if half the clientele agree with this change and presumably they are talking about previous content, not just Winter War, then that is half the battle right there. No offense to the other side, though.

So rather than having two iterations of OOB on my computer, I am ramping one installation all the way to 2.6.7 and playing all DLC with this version. After all, I demonstrated to myself, if nobody else, that post-patch artillery is still effective - see what I posted earlier. What I was worried about was that the older DLC would be out of balance.

But you know what? I was playing Bataan last night and I barely escaped (that is, Douglas MacArthur barely escaped, just in time) even though I played the heck out of that scenario. Masterful defense, on middle difficulty setting. But, if I did play that well, why was it so close? Let's see, I remember three or four Japanese artillery batteries "picking off" my weak units, just as the supporters of this change have stated. That was kind of dumb and unfair, come to think of it, especially given the overwhelming Japanese superiority in this scenario.

This was a good change, it is much better. The idea of ARTY is to disorganize. It works very well. It is NOT your strike weapon. WWII is scattered with battles where not following up with attack after using ARTY was a disaster. The 75mm before was just wrong.

I did not play the earlier DLCs, just the Winter War. So maybe there, the change made the scenarios unbalanced, I don't know. But in Winter War, it works very well and balanced. I would not be happy with a stronger, massacre-making über-arty. I just wish that the arty were given at least one defense backup per turn for the defenders, because with this state, no real defense line can be built. I even do not speak about AT guns, how defenseless they are...

The issue concerns the Pacific scenarios indeed, as I said I can't talk about the new dlc but according to Steam forum there are "problems" concerning the artillery in the Winter War too.

"The idea of ARTY is to disorganize."

Yes, I agree but not in this game where most of the scenario you have to be in a hurry and the effects of arty to unit's cohesion are unrewarding, much better take a recon units for less "money" after the last patch.

Well, it was then a not wise decision from the developers. There are methods the edit unit table in such way, that it do not effects to older campaigns.
From my view, I play the Winter War in the hardest difficulty and still I can live quite well with these arty pieces. And because there are a lot of defensie situations, stronger arty would make piecemail from my forces.

TDefender wrote:The issue concerns the Pacific scenarios indeed, as I said I can't talk about the new dlc but according to Steam forum there are "problems" concerning the artillery in the Winter War too.

"The idea of ARTY is to disorganize."

Yes, I agree but not in this game where most of the scenario you have to be in a hurry and the effects of arty to unit's cohesion are unrewarding, much better take a recon units for less "money" after the last patch.

Hi guys,

after much discussion we still think there is a need to adjust the way artillery works for the future but we're going to roll the changes back in the next patch coming soon (possibly next week). We're going to do further testing and balancing to make sure we find something everyone is happy with and even then, we're planning to give a way for you to play with the current system if you prefer in single player, though in multiplayer everyone must be using the same system.

If you want to be involved in balancing the new artillery system be sure to sign up for the next beta test!

You can find out more information here:
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 64&t=73512

IainMcNeil wrote:Hi guys,

after much discussion we still think there is a need to adjust the way artillery works for the future but we're going to roll the changes back in the next patch coming soon (possibly next week). We're going to do further testing and balancing to make sure we find something everyone is happy with and even then, we're planning to give a way for you to play with the current system if you prefer in single player, though in multiplayer everyone must be using the same system.

If you want to be involved in balancing the new artillery system be sure to sign up for the next beta test!

You can find out more information here:
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 64&t=73512

But if you roll back then the Viipuri Scenario will be broken. You have to rebalance the scenario at the same time or the half dozen russian 203mm arty will obliterate the finnish line in 2 turns. No hasty activism please. Offer a roll back patch for people that what want the old arty system. You can use the Steam beta system to offer multiple game version online as does other studios.
Probably you should develop a custom rule set for each campaign setting. Stop and think please. Consider how your decisions will affect other parts of the game, and take care of that before taking any further actions. Going into a frenzy whack a mole mode where try to fix the one end by breaking the other, just ensures you alienated everyone thoroughly.

Making the new/old arty rules as a choosable option in the game menu - like in PzC, for given rules - could handle this situation easy and perfectly.

Hi,

Patch 2.6.8 will be out later today and adds a toggle-able option for Single Player games to allow you to choose whether to have the degrading artillery performance or not.

Thanks!

Shards wrote:Hi,

Patch 2.6.8 will be out later today and adds a toggle-able option for Single Player games to allow you to choose whether to have the degrading artillery performance or not.

Thanks!

Ah! Here it is, on the Preferences tab. So I gather, until further developments, it's "off" for all DLC up to Winter War but "on" for that, if you did not mind the stronger artillery in the first place. The point being, previous DLC was created with stronger artillery but in WW, the Finns don't stand a chance against original-strength Russian artillery. So I have read here, I think.

bru888 wrote:

Shards wrote:Hi,

Patch 2.6.8 will be out later today and adds a toggle-able option for Single Player games to allow you to choose whether to have the degrading artillery performance or not.

Thanks!

Ah! Here it is, on the Preferences tab. So I gather, until further developments, it's "off" for all DLC up to Winter War but "on" for that, if you did not mind the stronger artillery in the first place. The point being, previous DLC was created with stronger artillery but in WW, the Finns don't stand a chance against original-strength Russian artillery. So I have read here, I think.

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That's a reasonable summary!

So, I see now that this option has been removed in version 2.9.6d:
That's just as well because I was not comfortable with what was a hybrid situation: off for DLC before Winter War, on thereafter. It presumes that artillery effects have been smoothed out and rebalanced for all DLC, which may be a big assumption, but it's summed up in patch notes as follows, I believe:

- Light artillery damage increased.
- Heavier artillery damage and shock decreased
- Artillery damage less affected by entrenchment
- All artillery does damage to enemy entrenchment
- Artillery damage reduction against low strength targets starts if target is below 7 strength

Fine, so be it. I will play the game and take what comes without having to worry about turning an ad hoc switch on or off.

Balancing is an ongoing - and probably never ending - task. Skirmish Mode is bound to reveal other issues, such as overpowered units or army compostions.

But we feel artillery is now close to where we want it to be: Effective at damaging unentrenched, high strength targets. Effective at whittling down entrenched defenses. But no longer capable of assassinating badly damaged units far behind the frontline.

adherbal wrote:Balancing is an ongoing - and probably never ending - task. Skirmish Mode is bound to reveal other issues, such as overpowered units or army compostions.

But we feel artillery is now close to where we want it to be: Effective at damaging unentrenched, high strength targets. Effective at whittling down entrenched defenses. But no longer capable of assassinating badly damaged units far behind the frontline.

Fair enough.

I like new balance of the artillery. I think that is more realistic now ...

calmhatchery wrote:I like new balance of the artillery. I think that is more realistic now ...

Yeah, so far (i.e., back in Boot Camp to see how the Specialization Points System works and whether you can advance your trainee "core" to the Pacific Campaign), the artillery I used did fine.

You know that M1 75mm howitzer that you start off with on the western Island in the second Boot Camp scenario?
I moved that up to pound Westport and it seemed to suppress but not decimate the enemy troops therein. Yet, to my surprise, the M1 did finish off an almost dead enemy unit which had been flushed out of Westport with remaining strength of one. That would be expected and acceptable, especially if they say "Light artillery damage increased" in this patch; I think a howitzer fits into that category. Small sample size, of course, but I was encouraged by this.

I want to see how artillery works in the last Boot Camp scenario and in the Pacific War Plan Orange / Bataan scenarios before I pass judgment. Then, of course, we need to take a look at how Winter War fares, with that notorious Russian artillery . . .

But as I mentioned in my previous post, one advantage is just to have a resolution of this issue, going forward.