Slitherine

rbodleyscott wrote:

nicofig wrote:The results :

15 mm : http://www.bhgs.co.uk/Nationals/results ... 8_15mm.htm

25 mm : http://www.bhgs.co.uk/Nationals/results ... 8_25mm.htm

Well this ought to put to rest the "medieval knights and pikes are over cost effective" issue at least in 15mm. (But not in 28mm).

I should point out at this juncture that Mr Speed had the smallest army at Britcon in terms of BGs (8 at 650 points) and not a single pike.

Dave Allen didn't have any pikes either........

philqw78 wrote:

Well this ought to put to rest the "medieval knights and pikes are over cost effective"

But we now have the "New Reigate Roman" (TM), (not from Reigate)

Pinner Standard Dominate

rbodleyscott wrote:

nicofig wrote:The results :

15 mm : http://www.bhgs.co.uk/Nationals/results ... 8_15mm.htm

25 mm : http://www.bhgs.co.uk/Nationals/results ... 8_25mm.htm

Well this ought to put to rest the "medieval knights and pikes are over cost effective" issue at least in 15mm. (But not in 28mm).

The reality that 25mm on a 6x4 table means that good tough frontal power is needed will ensure that medievals will be popular and effective in this format.

nikgaukroger wrote: Pinner Standard Dominate

Princess Spider moved to Pinner then?

nikgaukroger wrote:

philqw78 wrote:

Well this ought to put to rest the "medieval knights and pikes are over cost effective"

But we now have the "New Reigate Roman" (TM), (not from Reigate)

Pinner Standard Dominate

So what is the composition of Pinner Standard Dominate then?

Pinner Standard Dominate consists of:

9 BG's of 4 MF, Average, Armoured, Drilled, Lt Spear, Swordsmen
4 BG's of 4 LH, Various
1 BG of 6 HF, Average, Armoured, Drilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
2 BG's of MF, Protected, Drilled, Superior, Bow
1 BG of 4 MF, Poor, cheap, filler
2 BG's of LF, Superior, Slingers

I think.

dave_r wrote:Pinner Standard Dominate consists of:

9 BG's of 4 MF, Average, Armoured, Drilled, Lt Spear, Swordsmen
4 BG's of 4 LH, Various
1 BG of 6 HF, Average, Armoured, Drilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
2 BG's of MF, Protected, Drilled, Superior, Bow
1 BG of 4 MF, Poor, cheap, filler
2 BG's of LF, Superior, Slingers

I think.

How bizarre. Anyone care to refine this a bit? (I think the above list has a few illegalities)

9 BG's of 4 MF, Average, Armoured, Drilled, Lt Spear, Swordsmen
4 BG's of 4 LH, Various
1 BG of 6 HF, Average, Armoured, Drilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
2 BG's of MF, Protected, Drilled, Superior, Bow
1 BG of 4 MF, Poor, cheap, filler
2 BG's of LF, Superior, Slingers

There is only 1*4 Sup LF Sling
The MF Bow are unprotected
the LH is:
1*4 Alans Sup LH Bw Sw
1*4 Av LH Bw
1*4 Sup LH Bw
and I think 2*BG 4 Sup LH JLS
The poor cheap filler are limitanei Poor MF LSp

philqw78 wrote:

9 BG's of 4 MF, Average, Armoured, Drilled, Lt Spear, Swordsmen
4 BG's of 4 LH, Various
1 BG of 6 HF, Average, Armoured, Drilled, Impact Foot, Swordsmen
2 BG's of MF, Protected, Drilled, Superior, Bow
1 BG of 4 MF, Poor, cheap, filler
2 BG's of LF, Superior, Slingers

There is only 1*4 Sup LF Sling
The MF Bow are unprotected
the LH is:
1*4 Alans Sup LH Bw Sw
1*4 Av LH Bw
1*4 Sup LH Bw
and I think 2*BG 4 Sup LH JLS
The poor cheap filler are limitanei Poor MF LSp

Very interesting. How does this miracle of Pinner engineering achieve its spectacular results? (I think I can safely say that nobody on the boards has previously postulated anything similar to this as a top tournament army).

Large, and reasonably tough.

Light spear being the only "free" capability for foot at impact.

Armour is better than average to superior.

By swamping your army and aiming for flank attack with their superior number

olivier wrote:By swamping your army and aiming for flank attack with their superior number

Difficult last two games then I assume?

1 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
2 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
3 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
4 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
5 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
6 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
7 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
8 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
9 aux MF Armoured Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 4
10 Legio HF Protected Average Drilled - Light spear Swordmen - 6
11 Bow MF Unprotected Superior Drilled Bow - - - 4
12 Bow MF Unprotected Superior Drilled Bow - - - 4
13 LH LH Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - - - 4
14 LH LH Unprotected Superior Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4
15 sling LF Unprotected Superior Drilled Sling - - - 4
16 LH LH Unprotected Superior Drilled Bow - - - 4
17 LH LH Unprotected Superior Undrilled Bow - Swordmen - 4
18 LH LH Unprotected Superior Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4
19 Limitanei MF Protected Poor Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4
CinC IC - - - - - - CinC 1
Subs TC - - - - - - - 2

Not the correct OOM

No shock troops as well so it will not be pulled out of position by failing that test.

Difficult last two games then I assume? Wink

Yes! Specially the second game with an awful terrain placement and the perspective to defend a second time in a row against this monster!! ( and the assurance to lose definitivly the first place )

Despite being a victim to Keith's version of this Roman army, it was good to see an army with such modest weaponry doing so well. After years of just picking fully tooled up, high quality troops from the lists, I am moved to try experimenting with larger numbers of less well equipped BG's. This looks like a success for the rule writers in getting points values correct.

This year's Britcon was one of the most enjoyable I can remember. All my games were competitive and never boring. FoG has really made a big difference.

Looks like a very competent, generally armoured or better "terrain sitter" of an army won both 25mm and 15mm then, (as I understand ian occupied uneven and RGo for many of his games wjhilst HF tried to winkle him out....?).

I also lost a couple of games trying to force some sort of result on tables with horrendous terrain for my own MF-free army, so I can sympathise! You can get a lot of bits of RGo and Uneven in most home areas - if you pick the right terrain options

Maybe this is a temproary phase whilst quite a few people are "playing to play & learn" rather than "playing to win" - as having learnt my lesson (as did a few clubmates) next time I'd not even bother trying to pick anyone out of half a table full of uneven and RGO if I didnt have a big advantage in MF.

I'd already learnt not to bother fighting with anything less than "armoured" !!

My first games with FOG and when I looked around the tables I was pleased to see my own army selection was not that much different to most others........... different types but similar size etc............

Until I saw the minimum sized units in big numbers used by 2 top players.. oh dear, my fears seem well founded!

Is it that there are not many (none?) armies capable of covering the whole table with reasonable HF then the cheap MF's will force a flank or 2 somewhere in the line........ not too different to the DBM kinking I found so dull

Is it that the army size is so big, it is highly unlikey that competative players will allow the army break point to be reached, too easy to play minimum turns knowing that if you dont like the match up or terrain at the worst your opponent takes down 6 maybe 7 units, enough to win most games at Britcon, but a drop in the ocean for the MSU (minimum strength unit) swarms these romans were using at britcon............. bit like the DBM cheap filla routine I found so dull

It could be, and this, IMHO, will have a lot to do with it, that the players are very good players.

On a side note, I played Olivier, what a great player! he was fast, aggressive with his plan , decisive in his manouvers and not too shabby on the dice rolling too! cheers for the lesson O!

jon

madaxeman wrote:I'd already learnt not to bother fighting with anything less than "armoured" !!

Swiss halberdiers are in fact the antidote to this approach - and they are Protected.

(But wait till you see Norse Irish & Early Medieval Irish - unprotected HW men, the ultimate cheap armour slayers)

Didn't particularly occupy Uneven / Rough terrain ....

I had an IC (unusual it seems at 650 points) and won the PBI in the first five of my six games. I fought in Mountains, but other than the compulsory Steep Hill I usually selected the Coast plus two Impassables .... my general strategy was to use the Impassables to create channels for enemy Pike, Knights, Heavy Chariots, etc, and absorb them one or two BGs at a time, supported by an IC, and then replace the IC with a TC in the front rank if the melee needed it and rush the IC off to the next pressure point. Once the Early Swiss halberdiers have survived impact they're very resilient and will usually grind down their opponents in melee, especially if they can start to make overlaps count.

In game five the terrain placements were very polarised, I was either going to be stood in the open on the right against (I think) 6+ BGs of Pike, or behind largely impassable terrain on the left. I went for the latter because I couldn't have handled an impact from all of that Pike at once. It was my worst result, largely through a mistake on my part which Don exploited very well ....