Slitherine

My Bad!
Your right, I just got so thrilled about getting both of the new books.

Irondog

irondog068 wrote:Okay I guess that makes scense. I was suprised in Storm Arrows on a couple of things
1) I think the Swiss should still be elite but with everyone else average at best it seems okay. Have not played yet and seen what a heavy cavalry charge with gerdames will do to a pike block.

You are thinking about Elite as a word rather than a game mechanism. Elite are the best amongst the very best. Maybe if the Swiss had had some sort of honour guard then that could be Elite. You'll find Superior is good enough in just about any case with pikemen. Do you honestly think the Swiss were braver (and better trained) than Military Order knights?

Regarding the gendarmes, there are only 2 (ie a BG of 2!) available in the Ordonnance list so I'll assume it's a charge by regular Ordonnace knights which are average. I'll assume a BG of 4 knights versus 12 swiss pikemen in 4 ranks. It's almost the same points by the way. On the impact phase, it's 6 dice a side. The knights hit on 5+ with no re-rolls. The Swiss hit on 3+ re-rolling 1s! The knights get on average 2 hits out of those 6 dice whereas the Swiss get 4 or 5 on average. That means the knights are very likely to lose a stand (one more loss and they've autobroken) and very likely to go down a cohesion level. In the melee phase the odds are not so bad for the knights as they still hit on 5+ and the swiss only hit on 4+ still with the reroll. Of course by then the knights might have gone down a cohesion level and so might have less dice to chuck. If the Swiss finish the melee phase without losing their "steadiness" then the knights have to fall back and will likely charge in again at terrible odds.

So is superior enough?

For your first part. Yes I think the Swiss were better trained. Part of training also involves how to charge, when to charge and how to recive a charge. Most Knights were led by the need for Glory and the charge was no as good as everyone was trying to do there utmost to be a hero. Plus the urge to be shoered in glory made the charge and the wrong time or, worse charge when they should have been defensive in posture. Plus, part of theElite is who your enemy sees you. The Swiss in a "Bad War" were pretty mean troops with the lack of prisoners and the enmey knnowing it.

But as you poit out in the rules it seems a pike block should be able to eat Heavy cavalry which makes all my other thoughts not as important. But in honestly I still think they should be elite.

Irondog

Irondog - the Swiss for their time and style of fighting they are Elite.

You are getting to hung up on a word rather than performance.

The grades in the game are named

Elite, Superior, Average, Poor

If instead the words used for the names were

Aardvark, Elite, Average , Poor

the Swiss would be graded as Elite - absolutly no change in how they perform however - still the best pikemen out there. In this situation would you be claiming that the Swiss should in fact be 'Aardvark' rather than 'elite' troops?

Okay make them Aardvark. I am not getting hung up on the word I just think all things added up (Moral, training, shock value, not taking prisoners). They would rate Aardvark. Just my thought, Not really going to change my mind. But, If they come up with a expansion (say 1500 to 1600) which is not much of a stretch (Just increase hand gun range, artillery better). Maybe they would be rated Aardvark and Landsknect would be elite. (Swiss=Elite Landsknect superior).

Irondog

Greetings

At some point I'd be quite interested in experimenting with FoG for at least the earlier Italian Wars.

For now I just need to build up some forces and play a game

Regards

irondog068 wrote:I just think all things added up (Moral, training, shock value, not taking prisoners).

I'm still not convinced that the Swiss should be Elite. On the one hand you have St Jacob-en-Birs (1444) where they attacked against great odds and fought to the death. On the other hand you have Laupen (1339) where several hundred Bernese infantry (some accounts indicate 2,000 infantry) who fled into the forest when engaged. Fortunately the remaining Bernese managed to beat the feudal level they were fighting (poor foot? average foot?), and then turn to charge the Burgundian men-at-arms in the flank, who in turn had surrounded the Forest Canton and were giving them a hard time.

If you take Sempach (1386) the leading swiss battle, consisting of the Lucerne contingent, were convinvingly beaten by John of Ochenstein's MAA. It was the late but timely arrival of the fresh Uri contingent, who were thrown into John's now exhansted and disorded MAA that swung the battle around in the Swiss favour.

If you take Arbedo (1422) the Swiss were defeated by a Milanese condottiere army under Carmognola, who had the numbers. The Swiss had started retreating and were gradually being surrounded by condottiere troops. All sources agree that at one point the situation was so desperate that the Schultheiss of Lucerne even thought of surrender and planted his halberd in the ground as a token of submission. Carmognola’s reply was that men who gave no quarter could expect none in return. They had no choice but to fight on.

They were saved by the arrival of Swiss foragers, who were mistaken as a fresh contingent of troops by the Milanese. The attack was paused and the Swiss used to opportunity to quit the field in haste.

Superior classification works for me, because it's on par with good quality MAA of the period. I don't see their morale or training as having been better than that received by good quality MAA.

Still not convinced. But, I am talking Burgidian wars and the begining of the Great Italian Wars. Earlier I would agree the would be superior bot in the peroid I am thinking of Aardvark (elite).

Irondog

irondog068 wrote:Still not convinced. But, I am talking Burgidian wars and the begining of the Great Italian Wars. Earlier I would agree the would be superior bot in the peroid I am thinking of Aardvark (elite).

Irondog

I have a Swiss army and am happy with the Superior rating. Yes they did carve up the Burgundians and were clearly better infantry. However, there is good evidence that much of the Swiss success was due to the large numbers they could bring to the field.
I think FOG have got the classification spot on. Being protetced and superior is very effective and allows you to have plenty of them. If they had gone for Elite and armoured ( hard to justify since they didn't have shields ) you would have really tough foot but not much of them.



Cheers..........Geoff

There is a lot of ,mixing up of the concept of an elite army and elite troops. Without playing the game you probably won't see just how "elite" en-masse superior troops are, but believe me they are.

In the lists you will find a few elite armies that contain lots of superior troops: Romans until late, Spartans, Swiss etc. These definitely play as elite armies due to their mass of superior drilled troops. This should not be confused with elite troops which we have reserved for extra special BGs of special repute - Varangians, Cesar's 10th legion, Soldurii, Agema, etc.

Most armies that have a few elites don't have the mass of superiors of the Swiss.

Even with superior en-masse they are very tough overall indeed.

So in words they are elite, in game mechanics this is mass superior. So iI think you are sort of agreeing with each other without realising. All will ebcome clear if you try a Swiss armu on the table.

Cheers

Si

Alright,
Let me see what happens when the rest of my figs show up and are painted and try it. I would buy the argument except for 1 little fly in the ointment. Landscknet, They should be rated under Swiss but over the rest of the lot. And they were around during this period (Mind you at the end of the sacred 1500 year cut off). All this is a mute point if early Landscknect were really average drilled while everyoned else is average undrilled.

And I never really thought Swiss should be armored. Also just because someone has a shield it does not make less then armored. A MAA in full Gothic plate swinging a Halberd would be thought of as armored.

Irondog

Actually dismounted MAA are heavily-armoured if in full plate (as most of them are). A medieval spearmen with big shield, helmet and chainmail covering most of his body is armoured for example.

There are some rules where Swiss pike are front rank extra heavy armoured, second rank heavy armoured, third medium armoured and fourth rank lightly armoured. In FoG the Swiss have been averaged out as protected.

There are a number of reasons for protected rather than armoured, the mix of armour being one of them, the lack of a sheild being another. The key reason though is that there are no armoured pike in the game and there won't be, armoured pike are just too good. Superior protected pike are plenty good enough, honestly, I have used them.

Try playing the Swiss as they are. They do work and if you have an IC they don't run away much.

Just to clarify - if we found evidence of troops armoured enough to qualify as Armoured Pikemen they would be allowed, but we haven't found any yet

As much as I still am on the Elite band wagon when it comes to armor It seems protected is more than fair. In a scale where each figure would be 10 or 20 men I gould see the front rank armored, (never heavy in this peroid that is like full Gothic plate), second rank protected, 3rd either protected or unarmored.

But in the scale of FOG having the whole block protected it is more than fair.
Mind you it is your game you can up the front rank with your buddies but not in a tourny.

Irondog