Slitherine

No, I'm saying that in the situation given in this example you don't need to drop bases back to pass the friends.

Phew!

I had a similar situation in a game last night. There were two battlegroups side by side at the edge of the world and my opponent wanted to move the BG on the edge of the table first - I argued that page 54 is very clear that if "any part of any base" leaves the table the BG is destroyed. Normally, a shift would allow the BG to get away - but the BG could not shift due to the presence of the other friendly BG to the side.

And yes, the order in which the Battlegroups moved was significant.

Is this move allowed? The rules clearly prevent it, but other people said it was allowed.

So a new player at a competition who points out the rule and says you can't charge both would feel cheated if an umpire gave the response "I know that's what you said but that's not how we play it here" particularly if the BG being charged is the one AP needed for the game.

It's a slightly different situation compared to wheeling out of the line. In that case, the rules simply say nothing about what happens. In this it's relatively clearly laid out: the chargers halt.

So are you in fact saying that a wheel would not be allowed because it might confuse a new player? This is precisely the same as wheeling out of a line, because in that instance the argument is that as soon as you wheel you interpenetrate your neighbouring BG and therefore the move is illegal and you can't charge. If you allow the common sense interpretation (that has been accepted for as long as I can remember) that the troops wheel from the front of the line and you don't get hung up on the artificial restriction of bases for one situation, you have to allow it for the other.

dave_r wrote:Is this move allowed? The rules clearly prevent it, but other people said it was allowed.

I'm conflicted about this one.

On the one hand I want to say that the edge of the world is an artificial construct and so it shouldn't be relevant. My view on the wording of the rules is that the 'any part of a base leaves' isn't really for people trying to wheel or move a BG in a situation like what you've described but more for a BG which is fleeing or similar and only has part of the base leave, well, it's gone.

On the other hand, I'm very pedantic about wheels and moves being done correctly. The slip slide wheels that are very prevalent annoy me.

So, in a similar situation to this, if a BG was between two other BGs and in corner to corner and edge to edge contact, the BG in the middle would NOT be able to wheel until the back edge of the base had cleared the front edge of the other BG's as otherwise it would interpenetrate the BG on the outside edge of the wheel.

Give the above, I'd say 'no, the base cannot move first or it would leave the table', but I wouldn't feel great about making that ruling.

kevinj wrote:

So a new player at a competition who points out the rule and says you can't charge both would feel cheated if an umpire gave the response "I know that's what you said but that's not how we play it here" particularly if the BG being charged is the one AP needed for the game.

It's a slightly different situation compared to wheeling out of the line. In that case, the rules simply say nothing about what happens. In this it's relatively clearly laid out: the chargers halt.

So are you in fact saying that a wheel would not be allowed because it might confuse a new player? This is precisely the same as wheeling out of a line, because in that instance the argument is that as soon as you wheel you interpenetrate your neighbouring BG and therefore the move is illegal and you can't charge. If you allow the common sense interpretation (that has been accepted for as long as I can remember) that the troops wheel from the front of the line and you don't get hung up on the artificial restriction of bases for one situation, you have to allow it for the other.

No, I'm saying that the rules say it's not allowed. People were going down the route of "we all play it such and such a way". I was just pointing out that someone new has a right to play the rules on the page.

It is different to the wheeling out of line issue. The rules simply do not say what happens if a BG wants to wheel out of line. We have a post a while ago from an author that says 'just do it' but to be honest leaves something to be desired - for example what happens if you don't have the move to clear your friends etc.

The reason I say this is different is that, unlike wheeling out of line, the rules do say what happens here. They say that anyone even partly leaving the table is lost and that chargers halt rather than leaving the table. I'm fairly sure myself that this is not the situation the authors had in mind when they wrote that rule. And I don't personally play it that way or suggest my opponents do so - far too picky. But it is what they say.

Perhaps the board edge is not the best situation to consider - what with all that "edge of the world" and all. How about if the LH were hard up against a coast or impassable. You can't shift in a charge and can only wheel at the start. Would you have the LH enter the impassable terrain briefly? What if it were difficult terrain? Would the LH move drop to 3MU?

It is true that the rules specify what happens if any part of a base would leave the table. However, as far as I can see, what the rules do not say is whether you have to consider the precise position of each corner of each base at each point in time during every move. If that is the case, then any wheel where the outer flank of the BG is hard up against a table edge or impassable terrain would not be possible because the trailing edge would need to enter a place that the BG cannot. That is then identical to a situation where the base would similarly be compelled to interpenetrate another BG, as we know that interpenetration is not permitted in a charge

The normal practice (supported as mentioned by at least one author and dating back to before Fog) is to interpret that the BG wheels from its front and the troops follow behind the front rank as if they were the fluid body they represent and provided the bases fit where they end up there's no problem. Of course, the wheel needs to be moved correctly with one corner staying still and then the front moving straight forwards as Ravenflight has expressed concern about above.

kevinj wrote:It is true that the rules specify what happens if any part of a base would leave the table. However, as far as I can see, what the rules do not say is whether you have to consider the precise position of each corner of each base at each point in time during every move.

The rules state "if any part of any base of a battle group leaves the table", so yes this appears to be the case.

If that is the case, then any wheel where the outer flank of the BG is hard up against a table edge or impassable terrain would not be possible because the trailing edge would need to enter a place that the BG cannot. That is then identical to a situation where the base would similarly be compelled to interpenetrate another BG, as we know that interpenetration is not permitted in a charge

The normal practice (supported as mentioned by at least one author and dating back to before Fog) is to interpret that the BG wheels from its front and the troops follow behind the front rank as if they were the fluid body they represent and provided the bases fit where they end up there's no problem. Of course, the wheel needs to be moved correctly with one corner staying still and then the front moving straight forwards as Ravenflight has expressed concern about above.

You are allowed to shift to avoid the table edge as described on page 47.

what the rules do not say is whether you have to consider the precise position of each corner of each base at each point in time during every move.

The rules state "if any part of any base of a battle group leaves the table", so yes this appears to be the case

This is only the case if the first statement is true. I do not believe that the rules specify this.

You are allowed to shift to avoid the table edge as described on page 47.

But not in a charge, which is what this thread relates to...

kevinj wrote:

what the rules do not say is whether you have to consider the precise position of each corner of each base at each point in time during every move.

The rules state "if any part of any base of a battle group leaves the table", so yes this appears to be the case

This is only the case if the first statement is true. I do not believe that the rules specify this.

The rules sate "if any part of any base of a battle group leaves the table". How much more literal than that can you get? Obviously you have to consider every part of every base at any time as it states "if any part of the battle group leaves the table". What possible other interpretation of this could you have?

Are you really trying to say that "if any part of any base of a battle group leaves the table" includes the fact that parts of the base can leave the table in certain circumstances? I'm afraid the written text in no way backs up your argument.

What do you want the rules to say "if any part of any base of a battle group leaves the table. At any time. In any turn. At any point in the move. Even if there is an earthquake. Or a Flood. In fact in any circumstance"

My point is that the circumstance in the OP is identical to the situation where a BG wheels from a line to charge IF you apply the premise WHICH IS NOT IN THE RULES that the position of all points of the base must be considered at all times, because, in the OP the tail of the BG swings off table, whereas wheeling from a line it swings through the adjacent BG, causing an illegal interpenetration. IF you apply this premise, both charges would not be possible.

We have been happily allowing BGs to wheel out of lines for years based on the logic that the wheel occurs at the front of the formation and troops that follow behind do so in a fluid way, rather than being constrained by the position of their bases. If that's OK, then the same logic would apply to a wheel adjacent to a base edge or impassable terrain.

kevinj wrote:It is true that the rules specify what happens if any part of a base would leave the table. However, as far as I can see, what the rules do not say is whether you have to consider the precise position of each corner of each base at each point in time during every move. If that is the case, then any wheel where the outer flank of the BG is hard up against a table edge or impassable terrain would not be possible because the trailing edge would need to enter a place that the BG cannot. That is then identical to a situation where the base would similarly be compelled to interpenetrate another BG, as we know that interpenetration is not permitted in a charge

Wheels in the movement phase are OK because you can shift. Partly, this problem with charging is caused because it specifically says you can't shift in a charge.

The normal practice (supported as mentioned by at least one author and dating back to before Fog) is to interpret that the BG wheels from its front and the troops follow behind the front rank as if they were the fluid body they represent and provided the bases fit where they end up there's no problem. Of course, the wheel needs to be moved correctly with one corner staying still and then the front moving straight forwards as Ravenflight has expressed concern about above.

Well yes, it's the normal practice that people do it when wheeling out of line. And I don't have a problem with that because the rules don't cover that situation, and we have author comment. But the rules do cover this situation (albeit by random chance as far as I can see) and I don't think the authors have commented on it.

Consider the situation at Britcon. You get entries from all over, including people who travel a long way and aren't necessarily part of the local UK scene. They're in the last game, playing for the title and it's one of those "as long as I survive his bound I'll break his army in mine" situations. They point out that the rules say that a wheeling charge in those circumstances would halt, so you can charge my camp but not the fragged unit. Then the local player calls over the umpire, who's also a local player. The umpire rules that, despite what the rules say, it's "normal practice" that we play it that way, so you lose chum. Sounds dreadful.

There is a similar situation in football. It's normal practice to kick the ball out of play if the opposition has a serious injury. But the rules don't say you have to and teams have won games by not doing so.

kevinj wrote:My point is that the circumstance in the OP is identical to the situation where a BG wheels from a line to charge IF you apply the premise WHICH IS NOT IN THE RULES that the position of all points of the base must be considered at all times, because, in the OP the tail of the BG swings off table, whereas wheeling from a line it swings through the adjacent BG, causing an illegal interpenetration. IF you apply this premise, both charges would not be possible.

We have been happily allowing BGs to wheel out of lines for years based on the logic that the wheel occurs at the front of the formation and troops that follow behind do so in a fluid way, rather than being constrained by the position of their bases. If that's OK, then the same logic would apply to a wheel adjacent to a base edge or impassable terrain.

But it is in the rules. It's in the rules for "troops leaving the table". Which says that if any part leaves the table the BG is removed. And it's specifically on page 54: "a charging...BG whose move would take any part of it off the table edge instead halts its move at the table edge". It doesn't say "any part of it's front edge" it says "any part of it"

Is there not something similar in the flank march rules that says BGs that can't fit are lost? It doesn't say "don't worry about the back of the BG because it's not really there"

The rules only say what happens IF you move off table. The rules also specify exactly when you can interpenetrate another BG. Regarding this situation, both of those circumstances are the same IF you insist that when a BG wheels, its tail swings out. If you can accept that a wheel from a line is acceptable, as the vast majority do, the wheel next to impassable terrain or an edge is exactly the same. I agree that the BG would need to be able to fit into the space that it is moving to, but that would also be the case regardless of whether it was trying to fit between troops or terrain/edge.

Ironically in the OP the fragged target is in a single element wide column facing away. I can't see the head of it - it may be wheeling. So who knows where the men actually are if they are following behind fluidly. Perhaps the charge won't contact them after all

kevinj wrote:The rules only say what happens IF you move off table. The rules also specify exactly when you can interpenetrate another BG. Regarding this situation, both of those circumstances are the same IF you insist that when a BG wheels, its tail swings out. If you can accept that a wheel from a line is acceptable, as the vast majority do, the wheel next to impassable terrain or an edge is exactly the same. I agree that the BG would need to be able to fit into the space that it is moving to, but that would also be the case regardless of whether it was trying to fit between troops or terrain/edge.

Now it appears we are getting somewhere. Now that you have acknowledged the rules state what happens when any part of a base moves off table, we need to work out how we deal with that in practical terms.

The wheeling out of a line is completely different as the Authors got around this by saying it was an allowed interpenetration as long as the BG didn't finish on top of the BG they were inadevertently interpenetrating. That is clearly not the case here as part of a base is moving off table - which is dealt with in the rules.

However, I would suggest your statement that "if you can accept that a wheel from a line is acceptable ... the wheel next to impassable terrain or an edge is exactly the same" whilst being technically incorrect (i.e. as described above) is probably the most sensible approach.

As Graham has pointed out in an earlier post we now need a platform of some description so that this is communicated. Not all players follow this forum and could be playing that the wheel is not allowed unless a shift is possible and not at all in a charge.

Perhaps an update to the Errata or FAQ's? Whichever is most appropriate.

Really quite amazing that such an obscure scenario which most of us have never encountered in xx years of playing the game can generate so much angst.

Sadly I have to accept what the rules state and if someone wishes to make a big deal of this it could place an umpire in a difficult position.

Hence my earlier point about dropping back a base to pass friends in a charge.

I want to charge both the camp and the enemy BG. I can legally contact both. No dice are reduced in the impact by my wheel. But it has been suggested that I can't wheel because I will go off table or be unable to pass my friendly BG.

So why can't I drop the base to pass those friends and avoid the table edge and which will enable me to complete my desired charge? This seems to be entirely permitted by the rules.

(PS - Note to Self - avoid getting too close to any base edge! - It's bad for your health.)

I also have to accept the argument that a wheel from the table edge is not allowed if the bg can't also do a slide. Accepted but disappointed. I also think this situation occurs more often than some seem to think - but we've tended to ignore the problem.

So now we could do with a ruling in advance of Britcon - is this how the umpire(s) will rule?

Apropos of Graham's point regarding furriners attending Britcon and being 'caught out' by local rulings, I am taking a particular interest in this thread. I think I'm probably travelling the farthest of anyone to Britcon this year.

So we seem to have identified four scenarios which potentially involve the rear corner of a base 'swinging':

1. BG hard up against table edge

2. BG in a line with friendly BGs on either side

3. BG hard up against impassable terrain

4. BG hard up against terrain that would reduce it's normal movement distance

We appear to be concluding that the treatment for each scenario is different depending on whether or not there are specific RAW of relevance.

In the case of scenario 1, wheeling is not permitted as it would breach a specific RAW. But a shift sideways might work.

It would be helpful to summarise the conclusions for each of the other scenarios (please).

Hey, just had a thought... unlikely as it may be, this could be an issue with troops who charge without orders! For example, a BG of Impact foot in column after chasing off an enemy BG and ends up in contact with the side edge then fails cohesion to stop charging another BG. It cannot shift, cannot drop back bases (it's in column) and isn't 'crossing terrain'.

Is that BG doomed to charge across the side edge and fall off and get caught up in the carpet pile?

If the BG cannot contact the enemy BG it has no legal charge target. It does not test.