Slitherine

Agreed,i shy away from open challenges for that very reason.With your own challenges though,you can lock the book.Facing Romans is one thing with an ancient army but Swiss pikes

I just thought I would make an attempt at expanding Ianiow's army classification list. My also very subjective guide is based on pretty much the same criteria as his (versatility, balance etc). If I could quantify this at all, I would say that I assess these armies 60% based on how they match up against armies from their own book, 30% on how they match up against armies from their own time period (High Middle Ages for example), and 10% in super league play against any possible army.

This is for Storm of Arrows

EXCEPTIONAL ARMIES
Anglo Irish (early) 1300 – 1400 AD
Anglo Irish (later) 1415 – 1500 AD
Swiss 1400 – 1424 AD
Swiss (Burgundian War) 1476 – 1477 AD

GOOD ARMIES
HYW English (Continental) Allied 1340 AD
HYW English (Continental) Late 1415 – 1455 AD
HYW English (Britain) Early 1320 – 1350 AD
HYW English (Britain) Late 1415 – 1455 AD
Medieval Irish (early) 1315 – 1318 AD
Medieval Irish (later) 1415 – 1500 AD
Medieval Danish (later) 1488 – 1500 AD
Medieval German (later) 1457 – 1500 AD
Medieval Crown of Aragon (early) 1365 AD

AVERAGE ARMIES
HYW English (Continental) Early 1320 – 1414 AD
Wars of the Roses Lancastrian 1455 – 1485 AD
Wars of the Roses Yorkist 1455 – 1485 AD
Wars of the Roses Richard III 1455 – 1485 AD
Wars of the Roses Tudor 1485 – 1500 AD
Wars of the Roses Yorkist Pretender 1485 – 1500 AD
Medieval Welsh 1405 AD
Scots in Britain (later) 1404 – 1437 AD
Scots (Continental) 1418 – 1429 AD
Later Scots Isles and Highlands 1300 – 1493 AD
Medieval French 1350 – 1399 AD
Medieval French (later) 1400 – 1455 AD
Ordonnance French (later) 1480 – 1500 AD
Later Granadine 1450 – 1492 AD
Low Countries (Maximilian) 1478 – 1500 AD
Medieval Burgundian (early) 1430 – 1449 AD
Medieval Burgundian (later) 1450 – 1471 AD
Swiss (early) 1291 – 1359 AD
Medieval German (early) 1425 – 1449 AD
Medieval Danish (early) 1300 – 1387 AD
Later Medieval Swedish 1450 – 1500 AD
Free Company 1444 AD
Condotta - Venice 1440 – 1500 AD
Medieval Crown of Aragon 1410 – 1449 AD
Medieval Crown of Aragon (later) 1462 – 1472 AD
Medieval Portugese 1367 – 1390 AD
Medieval Castilian 1410 – 1450 AD
Santa Hermandad Nueva Castilian 1482 – 1497 AD

POOR ARMIES
Scots in Britain (early) 1385 AD
Medieval French (early) 1300 – 1349 AD
Ordonnance French (early) 1455 – 1465 AD
Navarrese 1350 – 1378 AD
Low Countries 1300 – 1450 AD
Ordonnance Burgundian 1471 – 1477 AD
Condotta - Florence 1424 AD
Condotta - Milan 1440 – 1500 AD
Condotta - Naples 1440 – 1500 AD
Condotta – Papal States 1300 – 1399 AD
Condotta - Venice (outside Italy) 1440 – 1500 AD

Let me know what you think and I'll adjust

Why Ordonnance French as a poor army? I think it's a good one, better than the Medieval French.

ianiow's classification, not mine!

Medieval Crown of Aragon is one of my all-time favorites. Certainly a good army in my view.

voskarp wrote:Why Ordonnance French as a poor army? I think it's a good one, better than the Medieval French.

You have a point here. The later Ordonnance French has the option of 6x sup pike, which I had overlooked. I've upgraded it to average and downgraded Medieval French to average. I like the drilled longbows for the Ordonnance lists but they don't seem to have a lot of options or variety. Why do you like them? How do you play them?

hidde wrote:Medieval Crown of Aragon is one of my all-time favorites. Certainly a good army in my view.

What do you like about them? The early list has option of 9x sup medium IF/OS, and the later list has 6x pikes but still doesn't seem to have a lot of variety. How do they do against SAS or EE armies?

What do you like about them? The early list has option of 9x sup medium IF/OS, and the later list has 6x pikes but still doesn't seem to have a lot of variety. How do they do against SAS or EE armies?

They hit hard
To clearify, it's the early list I'm talking about. Never tried any of the other two. Medium sup IF and Knights are a nice combination for attack in most circumstances.
Armoured off spears is a good backup and some cheap def spear can both fill up with BP and guard a flank or two. Plenty of crossbows(archers would have been better) can be used to harass the enemy if they don't want to come out and fight.
Don't think I've played against any SAS or EE armies with them so you have a point there. Won a Super League though, ahead of Eric and Pantherboy

IMHO the two German lists could be bumped up ( swapping places with Free Company and Danes)

I think size of the force is important too, I've done well with early hoplites at 250 point level, I do good with them on a larger scale.

I have only just come across this thread. Some interesting ideas here. I think Nueva Castilians should be classified as a "good" army - they have mounted armoured knights, armoured spearmen, Swiss pike men and excellent MF swordsmen available plus a good range of missile troops. I think they would do well on most types of terrain really because even the "very crowded" maps often have larger open areas.

Well done Ian. However there are a couple of issues. I agree with Fogman about initiative but then whoever uses the army is a big factor. Early Picts (poor) pantherboy won division as well as with Saka and Skythian. This is probably OK for up to 500 pts. The Jews would struggle at 600 pts + as well as numerous other armies. You just run out of the better troops. Not sure if Late Romans have won anything so they'd be average. You have to look at all various comps, tourneys to see who has done well. However that is based 1) The player using the army 2) The player they are facing and what they are using and 3) Who wins initiative. I have been away for awhile but this game does give numerous armies the chance to do well.

ericdoman1 wrote:Well done Ian. However there are a couple of issues. I agree with Fogman about initiative but then whoever uses the army is a big factor. Early Picts (poor) pantherboy won division as well as with Saka and Skythian. This is probably OK for up to 500 pts. The Jews would struggle at 600 pts + as well as numerous other armies. You just run out of the better troops. Not sure if Late Romans have won anything so they'd be average. You have to look at all various comps, tourneys to see who has done well. However that is based 1) The player using the army 2) The player they are facing and what they are using and 3) Who wins initiative. I have been away for awhile but this game does give numerous armies the chance to do well.

Hi Eric,

All of your points are correct, but you can't figure an opponents skill level into a list like this. As for initiative, I have generally tried to take into account an army's versatility in different terrains, scoring mixed troop armies higher than mono-troop type armies to allow for losing initiative and fighting in slightly unfavourable terrain.

BTW, I have copy and pasted Jonathan's Late Medieval army lists on the second reserved spot on the front page. If someone would like to have a crack at the Early Medieval lists that would be great. I can eventually post them in the final reserved spot.

Cheers,
Ian

I have worked these listings based on having played with or against some (possibly all) of the armies, how they have fared in comps and with no handicaps or limiting options. Cavalry lancers will struggle against knights, sup cav bow have a chance vs knights if terrain allows it. Lack of or good supply of defensive spear, in particular armoured and having mf bow/xbow interspersed, armoured knights more prone to missiles. LF are I feel very important in most games so possibly the Crusader armies may be downgraded. Also some armies are good instead of average based on allies that can be used. These listing are for facing armies within SAS (possibly EE) and from 400 to 500 points.

This is just my view. I believe that there should be no exceptional list, except?, even though I have included it. Christian Nubians can be used against SAS armies so take that into account (Parthians in LT, Anc Brit in ROR, there are probably others as well), I think they can be classed as exceptional based on how well they have done in comps and if you can max out on superior bow.

Exceptional
Latin Greece (Achaian)

Good
Early Crusader (1096-1097)
Early Crusader (1098-1099)
Early Crusader (1100-1120)
Later Crusader
Fatimid Egyptian (978-1071)
Georgian (1124-1243)
Seljuk Turk (Eastern)
Cilician Armenian
Cilician Armenian (later)
Medieval Cypriot (early)
Medieval Cypriot
Medieval Cypriot (later)
Ilkhanid Mongol
Mamluk Egyptian (early)
Mamluk Egyptian
Latin Greece (early)
Latin Greece (later)

Average
Mamluk Egyptian (later)
Komnenan Byzantine (later)
Cilician Armenian (early)
Syrian States (1246)
Syrian States (later)
Khwarazmian
Ayyubid Egyptian (early)
Ayyubid Egyptian (later)
Middle Bulgarian (later)
Nikaian Byzantine
Epirot Byzantine
Fatimid Egyptian (1167)
Georgian (1027-1117)
Seljuk Turk (Empire)
Seljuk Turk (Rum)
Seljuk Turk (Hamadan)

Poor
Later Crusader (Richard I)
Cuman (early)
Cuman
Komnenan Byzantine (early)
Syrian States (early)
Middle Serbian
Middle Bulgarian (early)
Middle Bulgarian
Trebizond Byzantine

Only one that jumps out at me as disagreeing with is Ilhkanid Mongol as good. I recognize that you (probably) weighted the armies most vs other armies in the book, and they do have a lot of ally choices, but still don't see them in same class as most Cilician Armenian, Crusader, Mamluk Egyptian, or Latin Greek armies.

Overall, really good, thanks for doing this.