Slitherine

AndrewGardner wrote:

Great_Ajax wrote:I can break these lists down into year and by type if that would be helpful to narrow the unit list down.

Trey

I'm not sure that I understand how your lists are meant to translate to a force in a BA2 scenario. Even after filtering by year, the quantity of units available appears like it would be well beyond the scale and capabilities of the game.

I like the idea of divisions being a 'choice'.

Forexample if you chose a Russian Infantry Division in May of1942 your force pool would consist of a lot of Rifle infantry/Militia/Guards infantry, a medium amount of scouts, AT guns, Mortars, LMG's and a few heavy MG's, SMG, Flamethrowers and heavierAT guns/mortars. A few different armor and truckhalftrack units would also be available to choose from.

These lists are about choices within a certain limit of logical constraints. The infantry lists are heavy on infantry, MGs, and anti-tank guns but very light on tanks and transports. The tank lists are heavy on tanks with very limited infantry with the motorized/mechanized lists being somewhere in between. These lists that I submitted were not intended to be maxed out but are about giving realistic choices. When you look at the German Infantry list and see those 0 of 18 unit availabilities, the intent is that the player picks one of those kinds of infantry (German Infantry, Parartrooper, Waffen SS, Volksgrenadier, Ost, Engineer), not that the player will field all six types. If it would help to further focus on specific formations (paratrooper, Waffen SS, Engineer, etc.), those choices would be cut out. Given the default 3000 points available in skirmish, a player could create an entire infantry company with support. Are there limitations in unit count? Maybe some clarifications and specifics would be more helpful.

Trey

AndrewGardner wrote:

Great_Ajax wrote:I can break these lists down into year and by type if that would be helpful to narrow the unit list down.

Trey

I'm not sure that I understand how your lists are meant to translate to a force in a BA2 scenario. Even after filtering by year, the quantity of units available appears like it would be well beyond the scale and capabilities of the game.

A medium force budget in a skirmish is currently 2000 points, but the total points for selectable units would of course be higher.

BA2 has a 64 unit limit per side, which does apply to the total number of units offered for selection. If you are familiar with creating scenarios in BA1, the same unit limits apply.

While I appreciate the desire to have a lot of choice, I think many people will also expect that if their opponent is a Russian Tank Division '43 for example, that they will be facing an army that contains a number of T-34 1943s.

I think that choosing the forces for the AI will be the hardest. Could you 'program' a default mix of part to of their force to insure they had few of the most common units? Like the AI should almost always have a few T34s or PZ III's in 42 regardless of the basic force type chosen.

HI guys

don't worry about the AI, what we need is to prepare specific units in specific years and convert that to code. Here is a bad example of how a file will look!

[PanzerGrenadierBattlation41]
SIDE AXIS
NAME IDS_ARMY_PanzerGrenadierBattlation41

UNIT_0 panzerIV_F1
// fixed quantity for 2000 point army
MIN_0 2
// total (fixed + selection) quantity for 2000 point army
MAX_0 4

UNIT_1 panzerIIIJ
MIN_1 2
MAX_1 4

UNIT_2 StugA
MIN_2 1
MAX_2 2

UNIT_3 Sturmpanzer
MIN_3 0
MAX_3 1

UNIT_4 sdkfz251_halftrack
MIN_4 4
MAX_4 6

UNIT_5 8rad
MIN_5 2
MAX_5 4

UNIT_6 German_truck
MIN_6 0
MAX_6 4

UNIT_7 German_Infantry
MIN_7 4
MAX_7 8

UNIT_8 German_Scout
MIN_8 2
MAX_8 4

UNIT_9 50mm_Pak38
MIN_9 2
MAX_9 4

UNIT_10 german_mortar
MIN_10 1
MAX_10 2


We want to create different armies for Wehrmacht, SS Infantry, Panzer Battalion, Heavy Panzer battalion, Engineer Battalion etc etc. The more variations we have the better. We don't want too many options in any one unit and we'd like them to be historically accurate.

Does that clarify what we are looking for?

Ian, that clarifies things much better for you are looking for.

Couple of questions.

What is the max number of slots that you want to see in these lists?

Infantry are represented in five man teams. Are these fire teams proper or abstract representations of an entire squad?

Are organic LMGs built into the organic firepower of the infantry in-game?

Trey

I think we're looking for around 18 different units types per army but Andrew will confirm the exact number. The UI wont be able to display too many types and we don't want too much variety in one "army".

The game is very abstracted. We could call the armies Companies or Battalions. Each tanks is a single tank. We should be consistent with our naming but I think we've got some freedom here. We could decide to make one army the 81st Airborne (if we the US....) so get very specific if we wanted or keep them generic. I think starting generic is the way to go.

Here is an example of a Fallschirmjager 44-5 Company List with Infantry as squads. Total of 17 unit selections. The list has to field a minimum of 4 Paratrooper squads (two short platoons at 220 Points). You could make more of the core units mandatory as well if you wanted like the mortars and heavy MGs.

German Paratrooper 4 to 9 (Squads w/LMG)
Para MG 42 0 to 8
Panzerschreck 0 to 2
Sniper 0 to 3
Para Mortar 0 to 4
120mm Mortar 0 to 4
75mm Pak40 0 to 4
Para Scout 0 to 3
German Engineer 0 to 3
Flamethrower 0 to 1
StuG G 0 to 5
Marder III 0 to 4
15cm Artillery 0 to 4
Panzerwerfer 42 0 to 4
Sdkfz 10/4 0 to 4
88 Flak 0 to 2
Truck 0 to 6

If you use fire teams as the unit of measurement for infantry then the cost and number available go up and you have to include MG 34 LMG teams to look like this and the player starts with 768 points accounted for.

German Paratrooper 8 of 18 (440 Minimum Points)
German Para MG 34 LMG 8 of 18 (328 Minimum Points)

So it depends on what you want to do. Do you want more infantry "on the table" as fireteams and LMG sections with 768 points of the available 2000 points accounted for before the player makes his choices? Or would you prefer to abstract the infantry as squads with LMGs organic which would lead to considerably less infantry on the table without LMG teams and significantly less points accounted for? I would be happy to build as many of these generic lists as you want but this is a key point that I need defined so that I am on board with your vision of the game.

I am thoroughly enjoying the skirmish. The lack of a skirmish mode was the reason why I didn't get much into the original BA but this mode is definitely scratching an itch I have had. I appreciate you guys listing to your fan base.

Trey

IainMcNeil wrote:I think we're looking for around 18 different units types per army but Andrew will confirm the exact number. The UI wont be able to display too many types and we don't want too much variety in one "army".

The game is very abstracted. We could call the armies Companies or Battalions. Each tanks is a single tank. We should be consistent with our naming but I think we've got some freedom here. We could decide to make one army the 81st Airborne (if we the US....) so get very specific if we wanted or keep them generic. I think starting generic is the way to go.

IainMcNeil wrote:I think we're looking for around 18 different units types per army but Andrew will confirm the exact number. The UI wont be able to display too many types and we don't want too much variety in one "army".

The game is very abstracted. We could call the armies Companies or Battalions. Each tanks is a single tank. We should be consistent with our naming but I think we've got some freedom here. We could decide to make one army the 81st Airborne (if we the US....) so get very specific if we wanted or keep them generic. I think starting generic is the way to go.

Technically, the new force selection UI will handle 32 different squad types, but it may be kind of overwhelming for the player at that point. The 64 unit limit is probably going to be the more significant limitation.

Ok, so I am a TO&E aficionado and would be happy to share some of the stuff I have researched. But first, some ideas. I consider BA to be a company-scale game, with the player's forces considering of a company plus additional assets. When creating a force, I think the player should have the following options:
-Force Type (Wehrmacht, Waffen SS, Luftwaffe Field, Soviet Army, Soviet Guards, Soviet Airborne, Soviet Naval, etc.)
This determines what kind of units, support assets, and equipment are at your disposal.

-Time (1941-1945, with not all forces being applicable for all time periods)
This further determines the kind of hardware your troops will be using. For instance, a Soviet Army tank force in 1941 will likely be equipped with T-26/BT-7 tanks, while one from 1944 would have T-34s and IS-2s.

-Quality (Poor, Limited, Average, Exceptional)
This will further determine vehicle types and other equipment. A poor quality Panzer company from 1942 might have Pz. II tanks, while an exceptional quality company might field Pz. IV Fs.

Once these factors are determined, the player may be able to spend "points" to acquire additional assets. Obviously, these range in price, with battalion-level assets being the cheapest and army or army group level assets being quite expensive. Not all forces have access to all assets, with most poor quality units being restricted especially. For a first example, let's say the player has chosen "Soviet Army-1941-Exceptional Quality". He will be brought to a list of company types, and chooses "Tank-Medium". His base force would consist of the following:

-Company HQ: 2x T-34 1941
-3x Tank Platoons, each w/: 5x T-34 1941

Other quality types would mean less T-34s and more T-26s, with a poor quality unit consisting entirely of T-26s. Next, for assets, the player can purchase the following:

-Regimental Level:
-Reconnaissance Platoon: 3x Armored Cars (BA-10)
-Flamethrower Platoon: 1x T-26, 3x T-26 (Flame)
-Divisional Level:
-Motorized Infantry Platoon: 3x Infantry Squads in trucks (quality and quantity of support weapons variable)
-82mm Mortar Fire Support
-76.2mm Infantry Gun Fire Support
-122mm Howitzer Fire Support
-152mm Heavy Howitzer Fire Support
-Army Level and Above:
-203mm Heavy Cannon Fire Support
-All Air Support

Any thoughts before I post some more of these?

Also, there are a LOT of different company types. I think narrowing it down to six to ten per faction would be best. To return to my example from earlier, a Soviet Army 1941 player could choose from the following:

-Infantry
-Motorized
-Tank (Light) T-38, T-40
-Tank (Medium) T-26, T-34, T-28
-Tank (Heavy) KV-1
-Tank (Cavalry) BT-5, BT-7
-Recon (Light Armored Car) BA-20
-Recon (Heavy Armored Car) BA-10

Sorry for the lack of responses here. This slipped under the radar. I'm going to have another attempt at this now but I think the interesting lists you are suggesting might not be possible right now as it gives too many options. I think I need to cut it down to around 10-20 lists per side in total. Maybe we can look at expanding the system to something more complex if people are interested later.

This is the mod work that I completed with lists ranging from 1941-1945.

http://slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=221&t=48872

Trey

Thanks Trey

this is a great basis but I was looking to go in a slightly different direction. I think there are too many specialist armies here for a normal game. What I'd like to do is have 3 versions of each army list - early, mid and late war. The types of army are German Infantry, German Mechanised, German armoured, German Paratrooper, Soviet infantry, Soviet Tanks, Soviet Gds, Soviet Gds Tank.

This would give 12 armies for each side which is a manageable amount to scroll through. I've started working on it but haven't got that far yet. Is this something you'd like to be involved in? If so PM me.

Cheers

Iain

May I suggest at least one infantry units only choice.