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Re: Japanese
Posted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 11:07 am
by ravenflight
as promised:
Samurai & Ashigaru march out of camp:
Ninja (Ambush marker) ready to attack:
Samurai cavalry swing around flank:
Samurai face off against Tercio:
Samurai fight Tercio:
Re: Japanese
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:01 am
by nigelemsen
Hi ravenflight, just to let you know I've just started my 28mm (wargames factory) samurai.... Only need it in 10 weeks time... Also I'm going to copy your colour scheme... I fancy a real bright effect... To try and overcome the shading point you raised I'm going to us dark navy ink thinned down and then apply a dry brush highlight in the colour. Matt spray and then cherry pick the lacquer armour with gloss varnish...
How has your army done so far?
Re: Japanese
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 6:43 pm
by ravenflight
nigelemsen wrote:Hi ravenflight, just to let you know I've just started my 28mm (wargames factory) samurai.... Only need it in 10 weeks time... Also I'm going to copy your colour scheme... I fancy a real bright effect... To try and overcome the shading point you raised I'm going to us dark navy ink thinned down and then apply a dry brush highlight in the colour. Matt spray and then cherry pick the lacquer armour with gloss varnish...
How has your army done so far?
Hi Nigel,
Let us know how the paint job turns out. I strongly suggest the use of transfers for your mons. They are very easy (but time consuming) to make.
My army has done very well. Come to think of it, in competition it is undefeated.
MOAB was:
24:1
12:8
15:5
17:3
22:3; and,
CanCon was:
12:8
10:10
25:0
17:3; and,
18:7.
These scores are rounded, with me on the left. Most of the close scores were very bloody, and even the 10:10 was after the loss of 9 and 8 points of about half of our armies.
I definitely sacrificed my army BG count by going with larger BG's. I think that's a big secret to my army's success. I've also gone with a Great Commander, and am not afraid (very Japanese of me) to attack with my Samurai with the Great Commander (not committed to the front rank) and rear support even against shock mounted at a --vs++ to bring them to battle.
Against a mate of mine (in a friendly) I asked him to bring a 'purpose built anti-Samurai army'. He didn't go all out and build a Gendarmes with Pike army, but he did build an army with 3 BG's of Determined Horse and even then I lost but bloodied him a lot.
I also went with the heavy bow option (my entire army is 3 BG's Mounted Samurai Bow, 3 BG's Armoured Ashigaru Bow, 3 BG's Heavily Armoured Samurai Spearmen, 2 BG's Armoured Poor and Average (rear support) Ashigaru spearmen and 1 BG of Hatamoto guard). We don't know what gunpowder is in my army. 1525.
Re: Japanese
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:03 pm
by nigelemsen
Hi,
8s tempting but at BG count of 12 for. 25mm army , GC+4 @700pts seems rude change
I'll be putting painting the blog... Currently have hatomanto assembled and ready to paint....
I'll be pushing images up on my blog :
www.nigelemsen.com
Only ten weeks to the comp.. Easy...
mmmmmm???
Re: Japanese
Posted: Sun Feb 01, 2015 7:19 pm
by nigelemsen
Hi
Oh here is my list @25mm/700pts.. To convert to 15mm /. 800pts just two more 6x packs of samurai
<strong>Revised list: (697pts)</strong>
Generals (1xIC, 2xTCs, 1x allied tc) 4 175
1 (A)Average armd spear 6 30
2 Average armd spear 6 30
3 Average armd bow 6 36
4 Average armd spear 6 30
5 Average, armoured heavy weapon 6 36
6 Hatamoto spear 4 48
7 Samurai hvy armd spear 6 54
8 Samurai hvy armd spear 6 54
9 Samurai hvy armd spear 6 54
10 Samurai hvy armd spear 6 54
11 (A)Samurai armd spear 6 48
12 Samurai armd spear 6 48
Re: Japanese
Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:23 am
by ravenflight
nigelemsen wrote:Hi
Oh here is my list @25mm/700pts
I take it you're taking the Murakami Kaizoku army?
I don't mean to be rude, so please take it as constructive criticism... but I don't like the 6packs. One thing you don't want to do is test, and you're making this army test probably twice as often as an army with 8 packs.
My (Murakami Kaizoku) army, at 700AP would be as follows:
Great Commander
2 x Troop Commanders
Ashigaru Warriors Armoured Poor Spear Spear x 6 (for rear supporting your Average Warriors)
Ashigaru Warriors Armoured Average Spear Spear x 6 (for rear supporting your Superior Warriors)
Ashigaru Warriors Armoured Average Bow x 8
Ashigaru Warriors Armoured Average Bow x 8
Ashigaru Warriors Armoured Average Bow x 8
Foot Samurai Warriors Hvy Armd Superior Spear Spear x 8
Foot Samurai Warriors Hvy Armd Superior Spear Spear x 8
Foot Samurai Warriors Hvy Armd Superior Spear Spear x 8
Ashigaru LF Armoured Average Arquebus x 4 *
Foot Samurai Warriors Armoured Superior Spear Spear x 8
Hatamoto Dt foot Hvy Armd Elite Spear Spear x 4
* you could take a 6 pack of unarmoured Ashigaru spearmen to act as a roving rear support if you didn't like the LF.
Don't make the mistake of underestimating bowmen in this army. You've got a 6" long range and 4" close range. The enemy musketeers are shooting back at you needing 5's when you've piling probably twice as many dice (or more) needing 4's.
I generally put one of the Samurai on one wing to protect the Ashigaru, then tried to put all of the Ashigaru (except those noted as rear support) in a line together, then the other two Samurai on the other wing. You've got an additional Samurai to what I had, so you'll end up with a very solid line. The Hatamoto go where-ever the biggest threat is (usually mounted). They are very tough.
Let me know what you think, and let me know how you pan out in the game.
Re: Japanese
Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 7:37 am
by nigelemsen
Hi,
All input welcome... Following other input ive dropped the LF and added a rear support unit. I've taken a heavy weapon unit then it can go in a single across the back.... As I'm upto 12 BGs at 700pts, I will look forming 8s just nervous about too low a battle group... I might shuffle the samurai into 4 x 8s.. And take the spare points to move the average armd spears into 8s also...
I'm doing the none cav version, but do have the figs tond a mounted unit, if I change my mind... Just to provide a 5mu manuover unit... I'm plating in an open comp, so expecting samurai cav to be out classed.... Arrr... Having dropped the LF I could early period bring them as bow armd so can atleast evade away.... Mmmmm...
Re: Japanese
Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 8:10 pm
by ravenflight
nigelemsen wrote:Hi,
All input welcome... Following other input ive dropped the LF and added a rear support unit. I've taken a heavy weapon unit then it can go in a single across the back.... As I'm upto 12 BGs at 700pts, I will look forming 8s just nervous about too low a battle group... I might shuffle the samurai into 4 x 8s.. And take the spare points to move the average armd spears into 8s also...
I'm doing the none cav version, but do have the figs tond a mounted unit, if I change my mind... Just to provide a 5mu manuover unit... I'm plating in an open comp, so expecting samurai cav to be out classed.... Arrr... Having dropped the LF I could early period bring them as bow armd so can atleast evade away.... Mmmmm...
My view is that if you're an 8 BG army that has nothing break, you're tougher than a 12 bg army that has half of the army break because it's fragile.
Considerthe advantages:
Harder to get 1 per hits;
Generals in front rank cover more bases;
Generals march moving the army move more bases; and
have to lose more bases to break.
Disadvantages;
Is a big hole when it does break;
Lower army break point.
Slightly less manoeuvrable.
Now, I had several BG's down to 1 base away from autobreak at many times at CanCon. I think it was the 8's that won me the comp. Sure, my exceptional generalmanship played no small part, and I'm modest about that... no seriously, people blatting away needing 5's to hit at long range and being frustrated with the not getting enough hits is a bonus not to be sneezed at.
Re: Japanese
Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:23 pm
by nigelemsen
Army already restructured into 8s... Two versions... One with cav, one with out.... Both at a count of 10bgs.... But with 50/50 on average/superior, but two full units of armd bow (16bases) gives me a decent round of shooting,...
However... Maybe grow some and bring in another 8 of samurai and drop a few average BGs to cover cost....
Ideas, plans , round and round...
Ps: thanks for your input....
Re: Japanese
Posted: Mon Feb 02, 2015 9:41 pm
by ravenflight
nigelemsen wrote:thanks for your input....
You can thank me if you chew bubblegum and kick ass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp_K8prLfso
If you get your arse handed to you, I did not say this... I am not here.
(sorry, can't find link to Dune).
Re: Japanese
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 7:34 pm
by nigelemsen
ravenflight wrote:nigelemsen wrote:thanks for your input....
You can thank me if you chew bubblegum and kick ass.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wp_K8prLfso
If you get your arse handed to you, I did not say this... I am not here.
(sorry, can't find link to Dune).
Gone 8s mad
. Heavy weapons for rear support in a single line or supporting hanging flank. Bows massed together, average spears working with superior spears.. Hatamoto where most needed to anchor a flank...
Generals (1xIC, 2xTCs) 4 150 698
1 Average armd spear 8 40
2 Average armd spear 8 40
3 Average armd bow 8 48
4 Average armd bow 8 48
5 Average armd bow 8 48
6 Average Unarmd hvy weapon 6 30
7 Average Unarmd hvy weapon 6 30
8 Hatamoto spear 4 48
9 Samurai hvy armd spear 8 72
10 Samurai hvy armd spear 8 72
11 Samurai hvy armd spear 8 72
Re: Japanese
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:03 pm
by RonanTheLibrarian
Can I just interrupt here to ask what advantages an "8-pack" has in shooting/melee, beyond being able to take more casualties before auto-breaking.
Re: Japanese
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 10:55 pm
by nigelemsen
RonanTheLibrarian wrote:Can I just interrupt here to ask what advantages an "8-pack" has in shooting/melee, beyond being able to take more casualties before auto-breaking.
Hi Brendan: that's the point.... Plus if armoured or better opponent needs 5s to hit... Assume 8 warrior bowmen unit vs a p+s shot unit...
P+s moves to inside 6"... Shoots 2-3 dice needing 5s as long range vs armour.. Expect 1-2 hits, no test just death roll. . Bow shoots 4 dice needing 4s. Expect 2 hits, test on a 6 pack.
Warriors move to 4"... Short range for bows (8 dice needing fours ) p+s is at long range (3" is short range) needing 5s as target is armoured. 2-3 dice... Needs three hits to cause check... Only need to pass death roll of upto a max of 3... Expect to inflict 4 hits, (test and death roll of 2 as bows)
P+s moves to 3" shoots 4-5 dice needing 4s as now close range so armour doesn't count. Again bows shoot 8 dice on 4s...
Next move charge.... Giving 6 vs 6 at impact (p+s) may be disorder by now from 20 dice shooting over 3 rounds... Melee if no effect in impact is upto 7 dice (one on warrior overlap ++) vs upto 6 p+s...
So, why 8 pack... Let's assume the warriors loose two bases in 3 rounds of shooting... Therefore an 8 pack average is still 2 bases away from breaking where as a 6 average pack would be 1 dice away from breaking...
Massed bows are more about causing tests than death rolls... Bring up a 24 bases worth and i would fancy my chances against your 24 bases of European infantry... The overall premise is my large warrior units will die from casualties, which mean your in hand to hand combat and out numbered, but you need 3 (shooting), 4 (melee) hits on the unit to get the -1... On a slight dice roll that could be the difference between a score of 6 or 7 to pass...
Finally... They look big and scary
Of course above is assumed average on average... Add superiors , skew numbers accordly... So a samurai 8 superior unit will be unlikely to be testing on the way in... Will just need to survive death rolls.. Breaks on 5 base losses so expect it to be costly....
So massed superior LOA Anglo Dutch is proberly one of the most scary armies for samurai to face... Min/max the list and you get a lot of superior shooters..
Re: Japanese
Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:10 pm
by nigelemsen
First or many figs done... Just spotted colour run... Fix tomorrow... Not as bright as I had hoped, but need a brown wash to hide my brush work
Good from 2ft so fine for the table....
https://muchallsarmy.wordpress.com/2015 ... ore-to-go/
Re: Japanese
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:11 am
by ravenflight
RonanTheLibrarian wrote:Can I just interrupt here to ask what advantages an "8-pack" has in shooting/melee, beyond being able to take more casualties before auto-breaking.
What Nigel said -and- 2 hits on a 6 pack is test 1 per 3. It requires 3 hits to get a 1 per 3 on only 1 extra base of frontage. You do get that extra base, BUT it's a lot harder to get that lucky long range shot.
The autobreak cannot be overstated. If you do get a lucky hit from artillery at 24" you are a LOT closer to autobreaking.
In one game I marched an 8pack up on 8 artillery. They shot at him pretty much the whole way except when I managed to get some shots pealed off. Sure I was lucky in getting across the table, but I would almost guarantee the 6packs wouldn't have made it.
Re: Japanese
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:13 am
by ravenflight
Re: Japanese
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:29 am
by nigelemsen
Hi Brendan,
A version I quite like as it's 8 packs and gets the mounted samurai in as I have models... The mounted samuari in single rank can provide a lot of rear support... The cav will be outclassed so needs to stay away from 1:1 fights. But also can be a mobile reserve....
Generals (1xIC, 2xTCs) 4 150 698
1 Average armd spear 8 40
2 Average armd spear 8 40
3 Average armd bow 8 48
4 Average armd bow 8 48
5 Average armd bow 8 48
6 Hatamoto spear 4 48
7 Samurai hvy armd spear 8 72
8 Samurai hvy armd spear 8 72
9 Samurai hvy armd spear 8 72
10 Mounted samurai 4 60
Re: Japanese
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:09 am
by vexillia
Shoots 2-3 dice needing 5s as long range vs armour.. Expect 1-2 hits
I think you are planning for the worst here. Two hits (or 3) are possible but expecting 1-2 hits is a bit too pessimistic:
Code: Select all
"rolling 5+ on 2d6"
0, 44.4%
1, 44.4%
2, 11.1%
Code: Select all
"Rolling 5+ on 3d6"
0, 29.6%
1, 44.4%
2, 22.2%
3, 3.70%
So you're most likely to get 1 hit with the occasional "2 hits" but the odds of missing altogether are still quite high. Of course your opponent can always ignore the odds and roll exceptional good dice.
Re: Japanese
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:15 am
by vexillia
Bow shoots 4 dice needing 4s. Expect 2 hits, test on a 6 pack.
This is the most likely outcome but the odds for 1 and 3 hits are quite high at 1 in 4:
Code: Select all
"rolling 4+ on 4d6"
#,%
0, 6.25%
1, 25.00%
2, 37.50%
3, 25.00%
4, 6.25%
Herein lies the risk / reward.
Re: Japanese
Posted: Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:09 am
by nigelemsen
Thanks for the number crunching.... as all gamers know... the dice gods can strike/reward at any time