Slitherine

rezaf wrote:It's not that the french tanks are better, it's that the AI is better than the real-world french at using them. Yeah, the Panzer Corps AI...
The french had an OOB that didn't exploit the advantages tanks brought to the warfare-table and many of their commanders were rather inept at using them to full effect as well.

Well probably you are right about French commanders. But still French tanks are tougher targets with better GD then German ones at the same time. Head on they are hard to beat, but with air support (as it was in real life) they were.

rezaf wrote: Long story short, airforce is a LOT less useful in PzC than it was in Panzer General. I used to get a strong bomber formation covered by fighters as fast as possible in PG, but in PzC, it's not so important to me.

Unfortunately I don't remember PG as I had 286 back in the day... But I remember there was larger number of planes possible in PG. Here, anything more then 5-6 fighters and same or less amount of bombers could mean problems on the ground. Ai generally has much more units to spare then player and as ground units conquer cities they are more important. Still I think 5 fighters are a must, as no flak alone can take all the planes soviets throw at you. Flaks on the other hand are really strong as you mentioned, but I kind of like it that way. Good recon and getting out of flak range is a must. Also good flaks help defending of air tremendously from 43-45.

rezaf wrote: I tend to make use of artillery instead, which I tended to neglect in PG.

I agree. Artillery is the key among tanks in PzC.

rezaf wrote: Btw., in PG, aa cover was actually a bit more diverse - you could get strong AA units that could cover, but usually only had a range of 1, and you could get weaker AA units that were unable to cover, but could shoot farther. These two unit types have been folded into one in PzC - it's one of the simlifications Rudankort undertook which I never quite understood.

Hmm, while sound in terms of balance, I read (as it logically should be) that 8.8cm had effective range of around 7.500m, while 3.7cm flak had effective range of 4000m. So this is I guess more realistic.

timek28 wrote:Well probably you are right about French commanders. But still French tanks are tougher targets with better GD then German ones at the same time. Head on they are hard to beat, but with air support (as it was in real life) they were.

Heh, I think that was Brindlebanes point - french tanks can be real tough when they appear in concentrations, which sometimes happens in PzC scenarios, whilst the real french commanders appearantly failed to see the benefit of doing this, especially early on.

timek28 wrote:Here, anything more then 5-6 fighters and same or less amount of bombers could mean problems on the ground.

Well, that's still a pretty huge airforce. Earlier on (say, until '42 or '43) aircraft are not as important in PzC. Like I wrote, it's much better in the DLCs, since there usually are targets of opportunity out of flak cover, and scenarios with more than a single turn of rain or snow at a time are very rare.

Fighters ARE important, I completely agree, and as time goes by, they become more and more important, as the enemy sometimes gets absurd amounts of airforce you have to stop somehow - the high mobility of fighters can never be matched by flak. But a five star Ju87 in PG could one-shot many enemies without taking losses, even flak, while the damage they can do is a lot more limited in PzC.
To give you an idea, only the hero-unit you get if you keep Rudel around, with it's insane attack bonus (+9?) is about as good as ALL Ju's were in PG.

timek28 wrote:Hmm, while sound in terms of balance, I read (as it logically should be) that 8.8cm had effective range of around 7.500m, while 3.7cm flak had effective range of 4000m. So this is I guess more realistic.

Well, what about the vertical distance? A level bomber is sometimes going to be out of effective range even if flying directly overhead a 8.8, even if the numbers are correct, no?
Anyway, the point is, player units are precious (you're always vastly inferior to the enemy, numerically) and air units are expensive and time-consuming to repair, so taking losses must be avoided at all costs.
Besides, a single lucky flak roll and a fighter could mean the end of your bomber, which would be even more painful. So you have to be careful or reckless, and the latter could cost you dearly.

Btw., are there accounts of flak ever being used in such large concentrations and as effectively? Maybe I have a completely flawed opinion on this, but wasn't a fighter or bomber shot down by flak the exception rather than the norm?
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rezaf

I agree on your points. Ju87s were much more effective in PG, at least my brother recalls that as true, as he at the time had better PC and was able to play the game back then. And you were right - 5 starred Ju87 could take a target out in single shot. Although I'm not sure if it could do same to target with large entrenchment, but I think it could do even that!

And yes avoiding losses at all costs is the lesson of the day. I'm not sure if it was the same in PG. Sometimes micromanaging and trying to make a perfect move in PC is tedious task over and over again so that's why I have to take breaks from the game every now and then. It can be frustrating especially since AI can spawn units at his leisure although he has huge losses, while if I lose one core unit it is basically a day of mourning, and can create lots of problems in future.

I'm not sure about real life situation with flaks. I know that in modern times they are useless against jet fighters (actually I witnessed this myself - don't ask me where or how, let's say I was bombed).. So that is somewhat simulated correctly in PC. Gotta and other jet fighters are hard to down with flak only, although maybe it has to do with unit's experience too. On the other hand I watched some movies or games that showed massive attacks of US bombers on German cities, and to be honest a lot of them fell down due to the flaks (say 1/5 of all) - but then again those are just movies or games...

I'm taking four stukas with a four fighter escort to deal with enemy armour and then jump every crippled tank with three of my own.The fighters if not busy,strafe infantry.The Brits/French can send wave after wave of what they like now,it's never around for long.Eight aircraft seems a bit of overkill but it's the only thing that works.Eat that Ai.