Slitherine

So a commander that is with a BG that breaks off cannot move away. OK.
A commander that moves to rally a broken BG cannot remain with the BG if it routs. Interesting.

So the rules mean what they say. Who'd have thought it?

A commander that moves to rally a broken BG cannot remain with the BG if it routs. Interesting.

Surely that's right - he (and his bodyguard) rides over and implores them to stop. They ignore him and carry on running, leaving the commander stood there!

He can always join them in the next movement or JAP phase if he wants - he doesn't join them in the rout!

Don

He can always join them in the next movement or JAP phase if he wants - he doesn't join them in the rout!

Right, so the only time you can lose a commander in a rout off table is if it happens in the initial rout phase. I think I may have got that wrong once too!

Right, so the only time you can lose a commander in a rout off table is if it happens in the initial rout phase.

Correct. V2 Page 118 - last bullet. It is no different to V1 in this regard.

Robert241167 wrote:Hi hoodlum

Page 117 of V2 says "commanders of both sides can move once in the joint action phase".

As break offs happen in the joint action phase the commander would have already made a move in the joint action phase.

Rob

However, the first couple of paragraphs in the JAP section make it clear that you move commanders in the JAP in addition to any outcome moves, and break offs are outcome moves.

It doesn't actually say that. It describes what activities occur in the JAP (Outcome moves, moving commanders and bolstering). How that is done is subject to the rules in the following sections, which includes the rule that commanders can only move once.

I have just had a bit of a read of the rules, and my take is commander only get 1 move, whether its due to an outcome move or move to join a bg.

First grahams point, you misquoted abit i think. it says "in which various outcome moves are actioned. In addition, both sides commanders get a CHANCE to move to new positions etc to bolster etc." It doesn't say you can move commanders, just that you have a chance to.

Now we move to the commanders section, under bolstering, the 4th bullet point the bit we need is in the brackets, says "note jap movement of commanders is before bolstering and rallying, so he can, if he is within his move distance AND FREE to move, move to join the bg for this purpose" note the bit i emphasized says "and free to move" which to me suggests that he can move if he hasn't already via an outcome move which would make him not free to.

cheers

Scruff wrote:I have just had a bit of a read of the rules, and my take is commander only get 1 move, whether its due to an outcome move or move to join a bg.

First grahams point, you misquoted abit i think. it says "in which various outcome moves are actioned. In addition, both sides commanders get a CHANCE to move to new positions etc to bolster etc." It doesn't say you can move commanders, just that you have a chance to.

Now we move to the commanders section, under bolstering, the 4th bullet point the bit we need is in the brackets, says "note jap movement of commanders is before bolstering and rallying, so he can, if he is within his move distance AND FREE to move, move to join the bg for this purpose" note the bit i emphasized says "and free to move" which to me suggests that he can move if he hasn't already via an outcome move which would make him not free to.

cheers

So...the break off outcome move is actioned and in addition the commander gets a chance to move. He is not free to move if he is currently in close combat. But he isn't in close combat, so is free to move.

The commander is not free to move if he has broken off because he has moved already and is only allowed to move once.

Graham has obviously eaten Dave*, thereby justifying Graham's recent comments and their joint result at the Challenge.

*I would assume this is only an entree for a man of Grahams stature

rbodleyscott wrote:

kevinj wrote: I've always played that you move once, and if that's a break off, that's your move.

That is the intention, tortuous logic-chopping notwithstanding.

So what happens if a commander decided to stay with a routing BG - not recommended, obviously - and an enemy BG stayed in contact and the BG autobreaks? As the commander has already moved once within the JAP, presumably he cannot then move to another friendly BG within his normal move distance?

Second, could the commander elect not to move with the BG breaking-off?

rbodleyscott wrote:

kevinj wrote:The extension of that logic is that a commander could break off with a BG, move to a routing BG, attempt to bolster it, then run away with it if he failed.

I've always played that you move once, and if that's a break off, that's your move.

That is the intention, tortuous logic-chopping notwithstanding.

Oh right, sorry missed this first time round. I'll play it that way then.

peterrjohnston wrote:[So what happens if a commander decided to stay with a routing BG - not recommended, obviously - and an enemy BG stayed in contact and the BG autobreaks? As the commander has already moved once within the JAP, presumably he cannot then move to another friendly BG within his normal move distance?

The enemy get to try and kill him again and he moves in the next move phase (if his) or next JAP

Second, could the commander elect not to move with the BG breaking-off?

Not if he is with the BG, IMO, but this could be subject to argument

philqw78 wrote:

peterrjohnston wrote:[So what happens if a commander decided to stay with a routing BG - not recommended, obviously - and an enemy BG stayed in contact and the BG autobreaks? As the commander has already moved once within the JAP, presumably he cannot then move to another friendly BG within his normal move distance?

The enemy get to try and kill him again and he moves in the next move phase (if his) or next JAP

If enemy are in contact, the move must be immediately, surely? At least, I've always played if a BG is autobroken wih enemy in contact, the general is assumed to be in contact too and must immediately move to a friendly BG or be destroyed. Otherwise you could get into all sorts of argument about his position relative to the BG.

Second, could the commander elect not to move with the BG breaking-off?

Not if he is with the BG, IMO, but this could be subject to argument

Which is why I was asking Not sure the movement of commanders section is 100% clear on it.

But surely, since officers lead by example, he would be in contact with the base furthest from the enemy.

So when the BG is removed he is in contact with none of his subordinates and close to (but not touching) the enemy, like most officers.

peterrjohnston wrote:

philqw78 wrote:

peterrjohnston wrote:[So what happens if a commander decided to stay with a routing BG - not recommended, obviously - and an enemy BG stayed in contact and the BG autobreaks? As the commander has already moved once within the JAP, presumably he cannot then move to another friendly BG within his normal move distance?

The enemy get to try and kill him again and he moves in the next move phase (if his) or next JAP

If enemy are in contact, the move must be immediately, surely? At least, I've always played if a BG is autobroken wih enemy in contact, the general is assumed to be in contact too and must immediately move to a friendly BG or be destroyed. Otherwise you could get into all sorts of argument about his position relative to the BG.

A general only has to move to a friendly BG to survive if the enemy move into contact with him (or within shooting range) when he is alone.

The routing BG is only destroyed after the pursuers have completed their pursuit move. Hence, at the time the pursuers move into contact, the general is still with a friendly BG.

Hence he is not killed, and can move to a friendly BG if the enemy do move through his position subsequently.