Slitherine

I'd agree with Martin. Still lots of scope in the 30 years war. If you're worried about Swedes why don't we try one or two amendments?

Dave

Another vote here for The Thirty Years War! We haven't really had a TYW fest since Godendag 2011 when FOGR was first published and there are always some fun interactions. Whether this should be TYW specific or Western Europe (will pick up ECW armies) you can decide.

If there are any "list or rule changes" to be considered they could only be around artillery deployment or Swedish commanded shot with RG's! I think we can guarantee that all artillery will be aimed at the flanks to stop the cavalry!

Don

david53 wrote:The one problem of doing the later period would be the mass swedish armies that would no doubt appear.

Early option without any muskets or pistols may be a better option.

Mind this is just my choice.

Dave

Fair enough opinion, but I did just want to come back on one point here ...

When this period has come up in the past there have been plenty more armies than just Swedish, and the Swedish armies that turn up don't dominate the competition either. The Swedish list has plenty of vulnerabilities.

All the best
Martin

Actually, here's one more suggestion ... how about a specifically ECW period?

We're running one currently at Central London club, where people had to pick from a list of 20 different armies (only one player per army). There's a large variety of troop types, and virtually all of the armies would be new to competition (even Caroline English is there!). Results so far have been interesting, and none of us has a clue which army is best.

However Martin, the Central London Southern League competition that will take place in the Escape will also be ECW and I'll bet there will be stacks of Royalists and not many Caroline English!

I'm for TYW + ECW armies for maximum choice and to encourage the widest selection of potential armies which I suspect many potential players have. I can see the benefits of Swedes, German, Spanish, Royalist, French and Montrose before even Dave Allen chooses his 20 BG monster! Alasdair mind you will choose whatever has the highest number of curraisier, hvy arm, pis, pis


Don

Never known a swedish army to win a competition though

Alasdair

Probably because you've been at the competition - using something else.

quackstheking wrote:However Martin, the Central London Southern League competition that will take place in the Escape will also be ECW and I'll bet there will be stacks of Royalists and not many Caroline English!

Don

I'm warming to the Caroline English list at the moment. It's the one list I haven't lost with!

I am delighted to be able to confirm some of the pre-action Friday fun for this year's Challenge.

We will be having a Saga competition this year (details to be published shortly, but pretty similar to the format at Warfare, but with the new factions added). For those that either haven't yet experienced Saga, or can't get enough of it (and there are a lot of those!), Ian Mackay will be hosting demonstration and participation games on Friday. Saga is a really entertaining Dark Ages skirmish wargame using 25mm figures and plenty of opportunity to play on pretty terrain. The battleboard system is innovative (for figure-gaming - keen boardgamers may have come across similar concepts) and really challenging, providing an ultimately simple and very quickly-learned game but with with huge scope for player-skill and real flavour for each different type of nation. WAR is rapidly becoming addicted and I hope to be able to bring my Welsh to the party for at least a game or two on the Friday morning.

And (drum roll please) ... scramble, scramble as Biggles will be once again be gracing the air on the Friday at Challenge. Chris Hanley has confirmed that he will be able to come, providing us with the thrills and spills of WW1 aerial dogfighting at its dramatic (and chaotic) best. I have been carrying the pilot record for Oberleutenant Karl Menckoff (currently with four confirmed kills to his record) in my wallet for nearly a year, waiting for the chance to leap into action again! For the as-yet-unitiated, Chris's "Biggles Flies Unzipped" is a thing of joy, one of the undoubted highlights of my wargaming year.

The theme for this has been finalised as:

Turmoil in Western Europe 1618-1649 (From the Defenestration of Prague to the Decapitation of Charles 1)

Armies permitted to be from the "Wars of Religion" book between these dates. Allies, if used, must also be from these lists.

We will play the rules as published, I don't think any prospective amendments are sufficiently defined/tested yet. If a new version of the Errata is published by 22 March (which is the deadline for Army List submissions), it will be used.

Hi Kevin,

Great choice and really looking forward to it.

At the risk of slightly smelling of garlic, for the French TYW are we playing the Regimental Guns as per the WoR book or as per how the authors intended!

i.e are we using your suggested amendment of:-

"If Regimental Guns are used, there may not be a greater number of Average BGs with Regimental Guns than Superior BGs with them, unless all Superior BGs used have Regimental Guns"

I think we should!!! (I'm looking at the French!)

Don

That interpretation was slated for an errata entry but missed the last one. On the grounds that it's the authors' intent and has been allowed elsewhere I'm inclined to go with it.

Thanks Kevin.

My entries now in - hotel booked (I'm too old, too grumpy and too tall to get in a teenagers bed!!!)

Vive la France!

The Don!

kevinj wrote:That interpretation was slated for an errata entry but missed the last one. On the grounds that it's the authors' intent and has been allowed elsewhere I'm inclined to go with it.

I doubt if any of the Frenchies' opponents could give a sh*t anyway, so go with it.

We will play the rules as published, I don't think any prospective amendments are sufficiently defined/tested yet. If a new version of the Errata is published by 22 March (which is the deadline for Army List submissions), it will be used.

So just to be clear - Swedish Commanded Sot remain salvo armed and can also be given Regimental Guns?

Unless affected by a new errata, yes.

Mr B-S - I don't think you mean sh*t surely it's "merde"!

Don

quackstheking wrote:Mr B-S - I don't think you mean sh*t surely it's "merde"!

Don

To you Frenchies perhaps, but to us it is "sh*t".

The following errata will be in place (as part of V1.09 of the errata) prior to the Challenge:

Rules:

P.82 Troops Who Cannot Charge

Section should read:

"Commanded shot, battle wagons and artillery cannot charge and cannot intercept."

Note: This is to correct an unhistorical anomaly which allowed commanded shot to be used as assault troops.

P.122 Shooting POAs

Delete the whole of the following sentence: “Exception: When shooting at the front edge of a battle group in Swedish brigade formation, the shooters’ POAs are determined by the armour class of the front rank pike base.”

Note: This rule “over-egged the pudding”, allowing Early Swedish armies to reliably outshoot equivalent non-Swedish troops at long range. This caused the optimal tactic for Swedish armies to be to shoot it out at long range until the enemy is forced to move into close range to try and even the balance, whereupon the Swedes charge. This was not historical.

Swedish brigades still have the following advantages:
1) 3 hits are required to cause a Cohesion Test when the BG is at full strength.
2) Swedish brigades can have a 3 base deep central file without being an easier target for artillery.
3) Swedish brigades lose 2 pike bases before losing any shot bases, thus maintaining their firepower longer than other BGs.

Sorry if Early Swedish players feel hard done by, but this change has been made after long consideration. The change allows Early Swedish armies to shoot at long range at equal effect to equivalent non-Swedish troops, and they remain a terror in close combat. It by no means renders the Early Swedes ineffective, as the popularity of Later Swedish armies testifies.

------------------------------

Wars of Religion

P.61 Thirty Years War French

Building a Customised List

Second bullet should read:

• "If Regimental Guns are used, there must not be a greater number of Average BGs with Regimental Guns than Superior BGs with them, unless all Superior BGs used have Regimental Guns"

Swedish brigades still have the following advantages:
1) 3 hits are required to cause a Cohesion Test when the BG is at full strength.
2) Swedish brigades can have a 3 base deep central file without being an easier target for artillery.
3) Swedish brigades lose 2 pike bases before losing any shot bases, thus maintaining their firepower longer than other BGs

.

Yes they do - (although not too sure what the benefit of your 2nd point is?) and they are paying an extra 13AP for the compulsory Superior Brigade in the list for these advantages.

So no points reduction for this change?

A hard done by Early Swedish Army owner.

PS - no issues with the Commanded Shot change - an elegant solution.