Slitherine

rbodleyscott wrote:

• The battle group must end its conform move in a normal formation (see The Basics section), except that each file steps forward to line up with the nearest file already in contact with enemy. This may result in additional enemy bases being contacted.

The equidistant situation obviously leaves the player conforming free to choose. Those that don't find that obvious can summon the umpire.

With hindsight, that is now obvious to me too.

So your suggestion works provided there is still something in there that says

• Bases that were already stepped forward can remain so.

which I think was in the same bullet that you have now rewritten. Otherwise no bases are stepped forward in contact so no bases step forward to join them.

That gives us something like:

• The battle group must end its conform move in a normal formation (see The Basics section), except files that were already stepped forward remain so and all other files step forward, if necessary, to line up with the nearest file already in contact with enemy. This may result in additional enemy bases being contacted.

lawrenceg wrote:So your suggestion works provided there is still something in there that says

• Bases that were already stepped forward can remain so.

which I think was in the same bullet that you have now rewritten. Otherwise no bases are stepped forward in contact so no bases step forward to join them.

That gives us something like:

• The battle group must end its conform move in a normal formation (see The Basics section), except files that were already stepped forward remain so and all other files step forward, if necessary, to line up with the nearest file already in contact with enemy. This may result in additional enemy bases being contacted.

My feeling was that this was clearly implicit in my proposed wording.

The battle group must end its conform move in a normal formation (see The Basics section), except that each file steps forward to line up with the nearest file already in contact with enemy. This may result in additional enemy bases being contacted.

If they could not stay stepped forward then all would be level and most of the above wording would be meaningless. Moreover, there is nothing there that says they must step back from their existing stepped forward position, so in my view the additional wording is unnecessary.

rbodleyscott wrote:

lawrenceg wrote:So your suggestion works provided there is still something in there that says

• Bases that were already stepped forward can remain so.

which I think was in the same bullet that you have now rewritten. Otherwise no bases are stepped forward in contact so no bases step forward to join them.

That gives us something like:

• The battle group must end its conform move in a normal formation (see The Basics section), except files that were already stepped forward remain so and all other files step forward, if necessary, to line up with the nearest file already in contact with enemy. This may result in additional enemy bases being contacted.

My feeling was that this was clearly implicit in my proposed wording.

The battle group must end its conform move in a normal formation (see The Basics section), except that each file steps forward to line up with the nearest file already in contact with enemy. This may result in additional enemy bases being contacted.

If they could not stay stepped forward then all would be level and most of the above wording would be meaningless. Moreover, there is nothing there that says they must step back from their existing stepped forward position, so in my view the additional wording is unnecessary.

IMO "normal formation" implies no bases stepped forward.

The reader coming to this cold should realise that "most of the above wording would be meaningless" unless he makes an assumption, but he may make some other assumption (such as: it means the nearest file of another BG).

Plus finding a rule that is redundant or nonsense gives me a bad feeling that I'm not understanding it correctly, even if I can find an assumption under which my interpretation makes sense.

Well, I'll take consolation from the fact that it's you doing the clarifications on the website, not me.

Lawrence wrote:IMO "normal formation" implies no bases stepped forward.

Indeed, but this case requires a "modified normal formation" (normal formation + stepping forward), not a pure normal formation. The "modified normal formation" is only required to exist at the end of the conform move - there is nothing to suggest that the BG should be in a normal formation at any intermediate stage. There is certainly nothing to suggest that stepped forward bases should be stepped back into line with the rest of the BG at an intermediate stage of the conform move - as a normal formation is not required at any intermediate stage.

Therefore, while I can understand your position, I submit that assuming that all the bases currently in contact remain so (including those already stepped forward) is a more natural reading of the whole. (Which is a lot easier to read than the "non-ambiguous" version).

lawrenceg wrote:Well, I'll take consolation from the fact that it's you doing the clarifications on the website, not me.

Absolutely. Our main concern is that the rules should not actively contradict what we want them to mean. If some further clarification is required for connoisseurs, then so be it.

Another one from last night:
X1 & 2 are enemy BG's that charge and step forwards into various targets. They are slightly to the left of centre on my bases so when they come to conform they need to shift left so:
The question is should the bases of X1 facing my BG A2 step forwards to contact after the conform or should they stay back in line with A3?

Interesting one again.

Hammy

hammy wrote:Another one from last night:

Code: Select all

       X1X2
   X1X1X1X2X2
   X1X1X1X2X2X2
   X1 A3A3A3 X2
A1A1A2A3A3A3 X2
A1A1A2    A4A4A4
A1A1A2    A4A4A4
    A2
    A2
    A2

X1 & 2 are enemy BG's that charge and step forwards into various targets. They are slightly to the left of centre on my bases so when they come to conform they need to shift left so:

Code: Select all

      X1X2
  X1X1X1X2X2
  X1X1X1X2X2X2
  X1  A3A3A3X2
A1A1A2A3A3A3X2
A1A1A2    A4A4A4
A1A1A2    A4A4A4
    A2
    A2
    A2

The question is should the bases of X1 facing my BG A2 step forwards to contact after the conform or should they stay back in line with A3?

Interesting one again.

Hammy

I would say that the files either side are equidistant, and hence (as discussed with Lawrence above) the conforming player can choose whether to step forward to level with the further forward file, or stay level with the less far forward file.

(Note that the files are in fact equidistant, even though the front of one is further away).

rbodleyscott wrote:

hammy wrote:Another one from last night:

Interesting one again.

I would say that the files either side are equidistant, and hence (as discussed with Lawrence above) the conforming player can choose whether to step forward to level with the further forward file, or stay level with the less far forward file.

(Note that the files are in fact equidistant, even though the front of one is further away).

That's fine, it looks like the new wording copes OK with this and it makes sense.

Hammy

hammy wrote:That's fine, it looks like the new wording copes OK with this and it makes sense.

BTW I forgot to say - you do get yourself into some weird situations.

rbodleyscott wrote:

hammy wrote:That's fine, it looks like the new wording copes OK with this and it makes sense.

BTW I forgot to say - you do get yourself into some weird situations.

I thought that was what testing was about

Seriously, in this game I decided to deploy all my heavier foot in single element columns next to each other... I won't be doing that again. It did lead to an interesting situation and I managed to break both the BG's that hit me eventually even though one of them was 8 bases of armoured ofensive spearmen (who are by the way as tough as nails).

Hammy

I'm posting on this thread as it seems closest to a situation we encountered last night with regard to conforming a BG after it has impacted two enemy BGs. No stepping forward or flanks are involved!

Assume a two base wide BG contacts two enemy BGs which are parallel to each other with a gap of just under 2 bases width between them.

Come time to conform there are no other 3rd party BGs that inhibit movement. However, nothing we read explicitly deals with whether the charging BG can conform to one of its targets while breaking contact with the other.

We assumed that it should stay and continue to fight in an offset position.

I don't think the bullet point "Troops that cannot conform by any of the above methods do not conform but continue to fight in an offset formation." helps in this case as the BG can conform to one of the BGs by sliding. Perhaps that first paragraph should say "...conform to [ALL] the enemy bases in contact:" in which case as above bullet would kick in.

Steve

stevoid wrote:I'm posting on this thread as it seems closest to a situation we encountered last night with regard to conforming a BG after it has impacted two enemy BGs. No stepping forward or flanks are involved!

Assume a two base wide BG contacts two enemy BGs which are parallel to each other with a gap of just under 2 bases width between them.

Come time to conform there are no other 3rd party BGs that inhibit movement. However, nothing we read explicitly deals with whether the charging BG can conform to one of its targets while breaking contact with the other.

We assumed that it should stay and continue to fight in an offset position.

I don't think the bullet point "Troops that cannot conform by any of the above methods do not conform but continue to fight in an offset formation." helps in this case as the BG can conform to one of the BGs by sliding. Perhaps that first paragraph should say "...conform to [ALL] the enemy bases in contact:" in which case as above bullet would kick in.

Steve

Nor do the rules say you can break contact with one enemy BG to conform to another.

Another item for the FAQ.

Thanks Richard,

My approach in beta testing is to have very friendly games where no one cares about the result, just the learning. However, when I review situations for clarifications in the games I try to imagine that there are two players who do think they are playing for sheep stations and that I'm being asked to adjudicate in the deciding game...

Situations where the rules are silent on whether you can or cannot do something are the straws that people quite naturally clutch at

Steve

stevoid wrote:Situations where the rules are silent on whether you can or cannot do something are the straws that people quite naturally clutch at

Absolutely. But the rules design philosophy has been to write the rules as simply as possible to increase accessibility to newcomers. We intend to clarify the "straw clutching" issues for tournament players on the web page rather than complicate the main rules.

stevoid wrote:Perhaps that first paragraph should say "...conform to [ALL] the enemy bases in contact:" in which case as above bullet would kick in.

But if I contact a BG three bases wide with a two base wide BG parallel and slightly offset then I can't conform to ALL the enemy bases I am in contact with as there are only two of me and there are three of them

I see your point but I think that if you just add the word ALL it may actually make things worse.

Good point Hammy - I meant to say "...conform to [ALL] the enemy [BGs] in contact:".

As the rule gods gave taken notice and acknowledge that some clarification is necessary I'm sure a solution will be found.

Richard,

You didn't actually say which way the clarification might go - they stay and fight in an offset position or they break contact and conform? I'm assuming the latter which leads to the following questions/points for clarification:

1. If the chargers stay offset, do the contacted BGs need to conform in their movement phase (subject to normal restrictions etc.)?

2. The amended Restricted Area says "For normal movement only... only perform a limited number of actions:". As it stands none of these actions include conforming to enemy bases, only to an overlap position.

Suggestion: add another limited action: "May move the minimum necessary as part of any conformation". This would then also cover friendly BGs not in contact that are being moved as the result of another BGs conform move. As it stands some might interpret the 'pinning' as fulfilling the "...provided that this is not blocked by enemy..." restriction in the conforming section.

Cheers,

Steve

edit: typo and added suggestion

stevoid wrote:Richard,

You didn't actually say which way the clarification might go - they stay and fight in an offset position or they break contact and conform? I'm assuming the latter which leads to the following questions/points for clarification:

1. If the chargers stay offset, do the contacted BGs need to conform in their movement phase (subject to normal restrictions etc.)?

2. The amended Restricted Area says "For normal movement only... only perform a limited number of actions:". As it stands none of these actions include conforming to enemy bases, only to an overlap position.

Cheers,

Steve

That is my understanding. At the start of your move any BG's you have fighting unconformed that can conform must conform.

stevoid wrote:Richard,

You didn't actually say which way the clarification might go - they stay and fight in an offset position or they break contact and conform?

The former.

1. If the chargers stay offset, do the contacted BGs need to conform in their movement phase (subject to normal restrictions etc.)?

Yes

2. The amended Restricted Area says "For normal movement only... only perform a limited number of actions:". As it stands none of these actions include conforming to enemy bases, only to an overlap position.

Restricted area does not affect conforming, which is not "normal movement".

Cheers Richard that helps a lot

As discussed a clarification to ensure that no one breaks contact when conforming will make this watertight. An addition to the glossary for 'normal movement' might also be in order - the only place I see an implied distinction in the types of movement is in Appendix 8 in the steps for the manoeuvre phase, i.e. reform, conform, and feeding are separate steps from making normal movement.

The staying and fighting in an offset position will lead to some interesting tactical exploits. If the enemy leaves gaps between their BGs then contacting two of these with one BG will force him to conform in his turn which may create new gaps and/or expose troops.

Steve