Slitherine

I have simple rules for this. I never surrender, and I always finish the game, no matter how badly I'm getting smoked.

Granted, sometimes I take a long time to respond -- my opponents have been quite indulgent on that front (thank you).

And if you a playing against somebody better than you, watch how they are doing it and learn something.

Allies can suffer defeat after defeat and somehow always be able to come back to put the axis into the dirt. Axis a single turning point means your demise is pretty inevitable. My two scents, it never really makes sense to give up as allies because you can always take the axis player unaware somewhere the axis falls like dominos, the allied player can be deader than road kill and swoop back in a few turns.

I get that some allied players feel like the axis quit early but do we really need to play out the whole last two years after the Stalingrad defeat to know I'm screwed? The allies already out produce economically substantially, ones the axis lose the edge in the field they never get it back. No fun in defense that can't win :/ Depressing more like it

Rico476 wrote:Allies can suffer defeat after defeat and somehow always be able to come back to put the axis into the dirt. Axis a single turning point means your demise is pretty inevitable. My two scents, it never really makes sense to give up as allies because you can always take the axis player unaware somewhere the axis falls like dominos, the allied player can be deader than road kill and swoop back in a few turns.

I get that some allied players feel like the axis quit early but do we really need to play out the whole last two years after the Stalingrad defeat to know I'm screwed? The allies already out produce economically substantially, ones the axis lose the edge in the field they never get it back. No fun in defense that can't win :/ Depressing more like it

I hear what you are saying, Rico. I know just what you mean about how lousy it can feel to play turn after turn when things just go from bad to worse. Here are my suggestions when you find yourself in that situation:

1) Like the man said, think about the other guy. He had to grin and bear it while you had your fun as Axis; now it's your turn to be a good sport and let him enjoy being on the offensive.

2) The worst thing you can do is to just stop answering the guy's emails. If you're not having fun anymore, ask how he'd feel if you resign. That's by default giving him an Ultimate Victory. Maybe he's alright with that. Failing that, maybe you can compromise: "How about we play out the next 6 turns...?" IMO this should always be a mutual agreement.

3) Better than abandoning the game is to just submit quick moves, down and dirty. If you've already given up, then maybe just make the best moves you can in a short time. [This isn't a great solution, since it means you're consciously not playing your 'A' game, but it's waaaay better than dumping your opponent.]

4) Dig deep into your gamer-mind and find the fun, even if you're losing. Maybe set yourself some personal 'victory conditions' ("If I can destroy x many of his tanks..."). Hamlet said "Nothing is either good or bad, but thinking makes it so." It's only a bummer, crappy situation to play in a game that you're losing when you tell yourself how bad it sucks. Try telling yourself a different story.

5) Are you really, completely sure the situation is hopeless? In some recent AAR's we've seen amazing reversals of fortune. Just look at what Joe did against Morris--he came back from the dead twice! This is especially important for the Allies. I've had several players abandon games when I was playing Axis just because I was kicking some butt in 1941. Well, shucks! That's exactly how the game is supposed to work! If Axis doesn't achieve some pretty fantastic results in the early years, they are toast. So why in the world would you give up so early as Allies?

IMO a simple solution to game balance concerns is to agree on playing both sides in back to back games with an opponent. That's how play testing has been done for many of the most famous PC strategy games ever developed, and it should also solve concerns about one side quitting early. Several GS users will only play as the Allied side so this proposed solution is not for them, but for everyone else I think it's a logical way to resolve this issue.

Another idea - game leader-boards stats where quitting is considered a major victory for the opposing side*. With majors so tough to get maybe there would be some incentive for a losing player to still go for a minor loss & make the best of a bad situation?

* = Excluding any agreed upon armistice's/deals between the players.

@Diplomaticus

Fair and agreeable.

I would say the 6 turns would be the time the war rages while my germany negotiates an armistice.

I don't necessarily mean quitting and never answer once my figurative Stalingrad in surrounded. But you can be sure that fight isn't the end, it just means the losses are going to start mounting much quicker. And the problem with germany, you can't afford heavy losses, you just end up with less and less while the allies grow ever larger and more effective.

Stalingrad falls, 5 months later my ruined front can be pushed back Kiev while the western allies really start winding up now. Deader than dead

In the words of Rundstedt, "Make peace, you fools!" I'm not hitler to struggle to that last man for futile reasons.

But yes, i agree letting you opponent know you are capitulating, or even declare role playing like negotiating period before the end.

As someone who has played the Axis to the bitter end more often than I care to remember, I've found I can make the experience fun by setting interim goals as the Axis fronts collapse. As in: "let's see how long I can hold this position," or "let's see if I can keep the elite units in reserve for a final, last-minute desperate blitz." Does it sound pathetic? True, it's not as fun as really and truly winning, but then even a series of self-imposed tactical challenges can offer some reward.

Well one thing I've discovered when playing the axis to the bitter end; which I done several times, is that it doesn't take much time to play your turns.

rkr1958 wrote:Well one thing I've discovered when playing the axis to the bitter end; which I done several times, is that it doesn't take much time to play your turns.

I know that feeling!

rkr1958 wrote:Well one thing I've discovered when playing the axis to the bitter end; which I done several times, is that it doesn't take much time to play your turns.

Yes , it took me only 15 second : open ,supply ,finish ! ( the turns in 1945 )

I think it would be great to give the Italian player a chance to surrender once Germany falls. This would be similar to the French Armistice design, but with the defending/losing player having the game option. Same thing for USA/UK if the USSR falls (rare but it might happen sometimes). I realize most games won't continue beyond this point anyway but it would be great if this was a game option instead of an awkward game etiquette decision.

BuddyGrant wrote:I think it would be great to give the Italian player a chance to surrender once Germany falls. This would be similar to the French Armistice design, but with the defending/losing player having the game option. Same thing for USA/UK if the USSR falls (rare but it might happen sometimes). I realize most games won't continue beyond this point anyway but it would be great if this was a game option instead of an awkward game etiquette decision.

...although the gradation in victory types/conditions does give the Axis-Italian player an incentive to hang on for as long as possible, even if Germany has already surrendered.