Slitherine

Kerensky wrote:I forgot one change in that giant list:

Panzer 38T no longer has a discount upgrade to Panzer III.

This will be changed in the AT and AA mod.

The 38t will be considered an AT unit so you can upgrade to Marders as in history.

Kerensky wrote:I'm fairly certain the StuH42 was changed at the last minute (didn't make patch notes!), and it is intentional to be 1.
StuG IIIB has range 1.
The 'upgrade' of the StuH42 has range 1.
The next 'upgrade' (possibly coming in the future) also has range 1.

??? We are talking about two very different beasts here.
The StuG IIIB was equiped with the same gun used in the initial PzIV series, the StuH 42 was equipped with a modified 10,5cm leFH 18 howitzer. Am not sure if the modifications of the 10,5cm decreased its range.
The 1 range in the StuG IIIB makes sense, the 1 range of the StuH 42 does not make sense.

Kerensky wrote:These units are all special 'bunker buster artillery' units (1 range, high armor, fortkiller trait artillery units)
How's that for undocumented changes.

Nice.

I initially wanted to second impar and deducter regarding the StuH42 range of "1" which is piss poor.

You actually changed the unit a lot. The soft attack is now just like the 3 range artilleries, while retaining much higher ground and air defense.

I am hesitant if this can outweigh the loss of range, it seems in future the StuH42 will fight at the forefront besides infantry rather than behind which could also be interesting.

If the StuH42 really has a special "fort killer" trait I will say it again, we need an UI improvement that allows us to check this very vital information (not only regarding the StuH but also special Infantry abilities) ingame. How are people supposed to know.

Razz1 wrote:

Kerensky wrote:I forgot one change in that giant list:

Panzer 38T no longer has a discount upgrade to Panzer III.

This will be changed in the AT and AA mod.

The 38t will be considered an AT unit so you can upgrade to Marders as in history.

I think this is also worthwhile thinking about. It is a general trend in WW2 to refit older tanks to tank destroyers, see the Panzer III -> StuG, Panzer I -> Panzerjäger I, Pz38t -> Marder and PzII to Flammwerfer conversions, also similar trends in the allied armies.

This would require a complete change of the upgrade process, right now it's restricted to be within the family/type of weapon. So no tanks to anti-tank conversions.

I consider Razz1's idea to be a quite good workaround regarding the current limitations.

Panzer 38T no longer has a discount upgrade to Panzer III.

Hmmm it is quite a change for the '39 DLC (not so much for the base campaign), as you'll spend 7 scenarios in Poland with tanks that are essentially on an "evolutionnary dead end".

Why not check the shop and find out for yourself. You might find something new and interesting there!

Yay !

It is too late for this release, but it would be cool if you thought about implementing this in a future release.

Currently, I do not think that light artillery pieces are air transportable or are able to be dropped with paratroops.

I seem to remember that there was a small arty piece in Pac Gen (US 75mm pack howitzer perhaps) that was air transportable, I don't remember if it was parachutable, and had a movement of two. Allowing them to be used like that would be useful.

Vaughn wrote:It is too late for this release, but it would be cool if you thought about implementing this in a future release.

Currently, I do not think that light artillery pieces are air transportable or are able to be dropped with paratroops.

I seem to remember that there was a small arty piece in Pac Gen (US 75mm pack howitzer perhaps) that was air transportable, I don't remember if it was parachutable, and had a movement of two. Allowing them to be used like that would be useful.

Of course, there's always the future to look towards. Balance is always an ongoing task of any long lasting game. It's never truly finished, there are always small tweaks that can be done to further refine and fine tune the game. And some tweaks may result in more tweaks being necessary. The alternative solution is to come up with a game like Chess.

Forgot one more.

Units that engage targets with a corresponding [1] value do not consume ammo of the defending unit.

In other words, you cannot strafe an IS-2 with a fighter to drain all of it's ammunition away.

If anyone has feedback after a few games on these stat balance changes, we'd be glad to hear them.
I suspect the Germans are quite powerful now, with even MORE tools at their disposal. Not a problem necessarily, as the Allies, especially the Soviets, have some tricks in store coming soon!

Been playing straight through the first campaign and liking it a lot. The airpower feels like it's better balanced now. I'm losing units every now and then due to the pesky counterattacks or just running out of ammo, so all is well

I really have a problem with all the Armored cars being increased in ground defense.

They are now higher than some tanks.
For example the Greyhound at 9 to 16mm armor is better than a PZIIIE at 16 to 30mm

So why buy tanks when Armored cars are better?

We will see how the game plays but I believe this needs to change back.

We have the same problem with the Tin can Marders. They have better GD than some tanks.

Kerensky wrote:Forgot one more.

Units that engage targets with a corresponding [1] value do not consume ammo of the defending unit.

In other words, you cannot strafe an IS-2 with a fighter to drain all of it's ammunition away.

This is significant.

What is the implementation here?

Have you marked these units with a special "do not consume ammo when defending against air attacks" flag?
Or have you added a general rule saying "[n] defense do not consume ammo when n<2"?
Or what?

Longasc wrote:I initially wanted to second impar and deducter regarding the StuH42 range of "1" which is piss poor.

You actually changed the unit a lot. The soft attack is now just like the 3 range artilleries, while retaining much higher ground and air defense.

I am hesitant if this can outweigh the loss of range, it seems in future the StuH42 will fight at the forefront besides infantry rather than behind which could also be interesting.

If the StuH42 really has a special "fort killer" trait I will say it again, we need an UI improvement that allows us to check this very vital information (not only regarding the StuH but also special Infantry abilities) ingame. How are people supposed to know.

The StuG used to have the ability to shoot 2 squares in a special case; namely when providing defensive cover fire for an adjacent unit you would attack that unit's attacker, even if it was directly opposite the unit you provide cover for.

A range that can never exceed 1 would indeed be poor, but let's await confirmation this is the case first.

I agree things should be easily visible, such as:
* "bunker buster" trait
* the way StuG arty works (specifically how range can be 2 in certain cases)
* the fact that a few "huge" artillery pieces don't pack the same punch as other units. (Regular units shoot ten times, while some Strength 30/60 units shoot fewer times. This obviously needs to be well documented to avoid confusion and disappointment and allow a player to make informed decisions)

Molve wrote: What is the implementation here?

Have you marked these units with a special "do not consume ammo when defending against air attacks" flag?
Or have you added a general rule saying "[n] defense do not consume ammo when n<2"?
Or what?

Yes, only [1] is subject to the new rule, any other ratings are not affected. The line of reasoning was that a very weak secondary attack (and any attacks in []a are usually secondary) should not consume primary ammunition, because it is bad for game balance and opens the door for various exploits. We wanted to fix this, but we did not want to introduce several different ammo types and complicate the game to fix such a minor, local issue.

Your fix is perfectly fine. I was merely curious as to where it was implemented. Now I know it is a special rule affecting [1] only.

Thanks, though as a follow-up: does this affect ALL cases of [1]? Or vs Air only?

All cases of [1].

* the way StuG arty works (specifically how range can be 2 in certain cases)

Actually, the range of an artillery when providing covering fire is 1, since the game works by assuming the attacking unit enters the hex of the defender. Thus, when providing cover fire, the StuG IIIB artillery is in fact within range.

The unit is too powerful, however, but I feel a different method of weakening it is best.

i hope PC will more finish.