Slitherine

But to return to an important point:

Don't marry the two separate questions
1) should Special Elite bonus units always come using the best technology available?
and
2) should early war units become unavailable later on?

To me, the answers are separate, and solving 2) doesn't solve 1).

In other words, yes, I would like SE units to at least always use competitive equipment, that is, good enough so I don't have to upgrade right away.

And yes, I want equipment to become obsolete as the war goes on.

But, and here's the kicker: these two features completely different cut-off points!

While I can see PzI's and PzII's still being offered throughout 1940, any SE unit should not use them even in Norway!

Let's take another example: PAKs*.

Wikipedia says that the 3.7 cm Pak 36 was outdated by the May 1940 Western Campaign, but also that it remained the main anti-tank weapon of Wehrmacht infantry units until 1942. In other words, the Special Elite expiration date for this equipment should be May 1940 or thereabouts - the last time you should see a new SE unit using Pak 36 should be as a reward for Norway. But simultaneously, the general expiration date for the same equipment should be 1943 (and not 1946 as today).


Cheers,
Molve

*) Yes, I believe it was said SE units never come as anti-tank crews. But the Pak article was the one I had in memory. Hopefully my point still gets across!

There are only SE variants for Tank and Infantry units.

Kerensky wrote:There are only SE variants for Tank and Infantry units.

Thanks for the clarification. As I said, however, I hope my point is still clear!

Molve wrote:While I can see PzI's and PzII's still being offered throughout 1940, any SE unit should not use them even in Norway!

PzI and PzII cant be offered as SE units.
The only units SE-able are:
- Infantry: Infanterie, Grenadier and Gebirgsjager (and their transport)
- Tanks: PzIII, PzIV, Tiger, Panther, Tiger II and Maus.

Molve wrote:1) should Special Elite bonus units always come using the best technology available?
and
2) should early war units become unavailable later on?

I would answer your questions:
1) Yes.
SE infantry would be only Pioniere, the 39 version until 43 version is available (with half-tracks).
SE tanks would have a cut-off date and only two models could be offered. PzIII and PzIV at first; once Tigers are available, PzIV and Tigers; once Panthers are available, Tigers and Panthers; once Tiger II is available, Panthers and Tigers II. Maus would be removed.
2) No.
Obsolete equipment should be able to acquired. Why would a player do that, dont know, but the option should be there.

PS:
Ah, Kerensky was faster.
Ju87G avatar!

Impar why do you think SE infantry should only be Pionieres? They had all forms of ground troops incorperated in their Divisions.

But I agree with your assesment on tank availability

Horseman wrote:Impar why do you think SE infantry should only be Pionieres? They had all forms of ground troops incorperated in their Divisions.

I could try to justify the "why only Pionieres as SE" by the stats and abilities, but the easiest way is by the prestige.
A player can get a tank or a infantry as SE, if he gets a tank the cheapest one is the PzIIIF at 280PP, a Pioniere with SdKfz 251 costs 293PP, which is close.
Once the campaign is in the middle the player can get a PzIV for ~500PP or a Infanterie+Opel for 177PP

It is my understanding that SS (SE) formations were small at the beginning of WWII, but highly motivated/trained, when they did gain prominance mid-war, I beleive they were always given the best equipemnt to the detriment of Werhmacht units.

Is this relected in how they are govrned in this game?

I am a bit disappointed that SE units don't really have better stats than regular units. Sometimes they just get +1 attack but suffers -1 defense. What's so special or elite about that? SE units should only use the latest weapon available and should have better stats, most importantly, they should have higher initiative to show they are motivated elite troops.

dumbttt wrote:I am a bit disappointed that SE units don't really have better stats than regular units. Sometimes they just get +1 attack but suffers -1 defense. What's so special or elite about that? SE units should only use the latest weapon available and should have better stats, most importantly, they should have higher initiative to show they are motivated elite troops.

As was stated earlier, the primary benefit of a SE unit is that they don't take up a deployment slot. This is a huge bonus and shouldn't be overlooked. Once you have the max 3, that's 3 extra units on every map. Higher stats would be nice, but that's what heroes are for.

AgentX wrote:

dumbttt wrote:I am a bit disappointed that SE units don't really have better stats than regular units. Sometimes they just get +1 attack but suffers -1 defense. What's so special or elite about that? SE units should only use the latest weapon available and should have better stats, most importantly, they should have higher initiative to show they are motivated elite troops.

As was stated earlier, the primary benefit of a SE unit is that they don't take up a deployment slot. This is a huge bonus and shouldn't be overlooked. Once you have the max 3, that's 3 extra units on every map. Higher stats would be nice, but that's what heroes are for.

That's what you think, doesn't mean everyone must necessarily agree with you. As you stated yourself, the point about SE units not taking up core slot was mentioned earlier in the thread, no need to keep repeating it.

I would rather retain the 1 Defence, since it's more useful overall.

deadtorius wrote:International laws in certain countries that have outlawed reference to SS or Nazi etc. If it had stayed in the game then PZC would have been banned in those countries and reduced the available market to Slitherine.
There was a post back in the original beta thread about how you can go into a file and manually change their name to SS or whatever you want them to be called in game. Perhaps one of the devs can repost that one again.

Isnt it mainly Germany who have these laws? And any other nation who feels bad about what they did so many years ago. Bunch of hypocrites.

And since we discuss equipment. The PzII should have a higher soft attack and lower hard attack. That 2cm gun was deadly against infantry, but almost useless again tanks.

TigerIII wrote:And since we discuss equipment. The PzII should have a higher soft attack and lower hard attack. That 2cm gun was deadly against infantry, but almost useless again tanks.

4 HA is already lower than the defense value of any Allied tank or recon unit. Our approach to the PZ I and PZ II can be summed up:

We want the PZIs to be more useful, so they have very strong soft attack ratings to reflect their MG armament.
The PzII is more general purpose than the PZ I, so it does everything a little better except for attacking soft targets. So the PZ II is arguably 'better' but it doesn't make the PZ I completely obsolete.

The 38T is just flat out better than the I and II, but it also comes as the highest cost.

So each unit has some useful purpose (Is are decent against soft targets, IIs, are better against light tanks but less effective against say an artillery piece), although there is no escaping the reality that better historical equipment comes with better in game combat performance. If you want the best though, you are going to have to pay for it at least.

For a contrary point of view, I would be totally okay with PzI's having no useful purpose in this regard.

Even a unit with all zero attack values has some purpose after all, even if it is restricted to doing a bit of recon before it dies as a decoy/bait unit.

Having a PzI that is worse in all regards is not something you need to fix.